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Default I'm Confused! - 07-26-2017, 09:16 PM

Hi. I should start off by saying that I'm not an atheist, so you don't have to worry about that. I believe in God. The thing is though, I'm what you could call religiously confused. I don't know what to believe! Sure, I take the existence of God as a given, but I don't know if he's the god of the bible. In fact, I'm not entirely sure if there's only one god. Could be multiple. Who knows? All I know is that the universe is here, and somebody had to create it. So, I guess what I want to know is what makes you folks here at Landover so certain that God is the god of the bible? How are you sure that he isn't the muslim god or some hindu elephant god or some such sort of thing? I would be delighted if you could clear up my confusion!
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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-26-2017, 09:20 PM

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Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
Hi. I should start off by saying that I'm not an atheist, so you don't have to worry about that. I believe in God. The thing is though, I'm what you could call religiously confused. I don't know what to believe! Sure, I take the existence of God as a given, but I don't know if he's the god of the bible. In fact, I'm not entirely sure if there's only one god. Could be multiple. Who knows? All I know is that the universe is here, and somebody had to create it. So, I guess what I want to know is what makes you folks here at Landover so certain that God is the god of the bible? How are you sure that he isn't the muslim god or some hindu elephant god or some such sort of thing? I would be delighted if you could clear up my confusion!
Why someone is needed to create the universe? It is completely possible that was not created at all, that always existed.

Now think a bit, what is created? nothing, everything is trasformated.

I expect this will clarify your confussion.

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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-26-2017, 09:37 PM

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Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
...Sure, I take the existence of God as a given...
Why?

Quote:
...All I know is that the universe is here, and somebody had to create it...
That just leads back to "who created the creator?".

Quote:
...How are you sure that he isn't the muslim god...
Same god.

While you're out reading up on Abrahamic religions, take a bit to learn the difference between faith and proof, and how if you have one, there's no need for the other.


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Jesus Re: I'm Confused! - 07-26-2017, 09:53 PM

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Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
Hi. I should start off by saying that I'm not an atheist, so you don't have to worry about that. I believe in God. The thing is though, I'm what you could call religiously confused. I don't know what to believe! Sure, I take the existence of God as a given, but I don't know if he's the god of the bible. In fact, I'm not entirely sure if there's only one god. Could be multiple. Who knows? All I know is that the universe is here, and somebody had to create it. So, I guess what I want to know is what makes you folks here at Landover so certain that God is the god of the bible? How are you sure that he isn't the muslim god or some hindu elephant god or some such sort of thing? I would be delighted if you could clear up my confusion!
Have you read and committed to memory the KJV Bible? Have you given yourself to Jesus and proved it by providing for the Landover Church? You know, if you suffer for Jesus, He will reward you when you finally get to die and go to Heaven with an eternity of slendor. A small price to pay for 90 years of misery on Earth.
There is only one God as described in the Holy Bible.
Revelation 1:14


11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Now, does that sound like some sand nigra or dot head?


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-26-2017, 10:46 PM

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Originally Posted by Didymus Much View Post
Why?
Ah, I do suppose I ought to elaborate on that. I must say though, I never thought I would have to defend the existence of a god here, of all places. Well, here is my view. It can be observed that all nations have laws. These laws all had to be written by someone; they didn't just pop into existence on their own. The same it is with the laws of nature, like gravity, electromagnetism, and etc. If a god didn't write those laws, then who did? Plus, as I've mentioned, the universe has to have been created by somebody, as there are no uncaused causes.

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Originally Posted by Didymus Much View Post
That just leads back to "who created the creator?".
And yes, you are correct in saying that this does lead to that question. I propose that this god perhaps dwells in an overarching universe, which was created in turn by another god. And that other god in turn was created by another, and so on and so forth, in an infinite chain, such that everything is created by something else. This neatly solves that problem, and I believe is a superior explanation to the one commonly accepted, that the universe magically poofed into existence. That explanation violates the obvious observation that there is no uncaused cause, whereas my explanation does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didymus Much View Post
Same god.
That is a matter of opinion. I hardly think any Christians would say that the Islamic God is the same as the Christian one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Hutchins
Now, does that sound like some sand nigra or dot head?
Indeed, that does not. But how do you know that the bible is infact the word of God?
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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-26-2017, 10:52 PM

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Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
all nations have laws
No they don't.
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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-26-2017, 10:56 PM

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Originally Posted by MitzaLizalor View Post
No they don't.
Care to give an example?
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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-26-2017, 11:13 PM

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Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
But how do you know that the bible is infact the word of God?
Have you even read the Bible(KJV1611)?

2nd Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
Deuteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Psalm 12:6-7 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

The answer is right in front of you if you care to look.

YIC


1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-26-2017, 11:19 PM

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Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
And yes, you are correct in saying that this does lead to that question. I propose that this god perhaps dwells in an overarching universe, which was created in turn by another god. And that other god in turn was created by another, and so on and so forth, in an infinite chain, such that everything is created by something else. This neatly solves that problem, and I believe is a superior explanation to the one commonly accepted, that the universe magically poofed into existence. That explanation violates the obvious observation that there is no uncaused cause, whereas my explanation does not.
Nothing created God. He created Himself. And before you cry 'special pleading' it doesn't apply to God because He create Himself.

Otherwise what would stop it from being 'turtles all the way down'?

YIC


1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-26-2017, 11:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
...I must say though, I never thought I would have to defend the existence of a god here, of all places...
I'm not asking you to defend the existence of God (impossible task), I'm asking you to defend your belief that God exists. You must base it on something more than your ignorance of science.

Quote:
...If a god didn't write those laws, then who did?...
Ah, you're just looking for someone to blame this whole mess on.

Quote:
...an infinite chain, such that everything is created by something else. This neatly solves that problem...
No, it doesn't. It just relies on the questioner losing track of what they asked in the first place.

As an aside, if you're looking for work, there should be several Senate vacancies available at the next cycle. Your talent for obfuscation may yet be well rewarded. As a plus, you may have the chance to be applauded as a brave hero for condemning millions of your fellow citizens to needless suffering and premature death (don't worry, it'll just be the poors that lose).

Quote:
...That is a matter of opinion. I hardly think any Christians would say that the Islamic God is the same as the Christian one...
Like I suggested earlier, go read up on Abrahamic religions if you want to argue about what they believe.

Quote:
...Indeed, that does not. But how do you know that the bible is infact the word of God?
Faith. That's all that God asks for in the Bible (you really should read the blessed thing).

Think about it. If there was proof, he would know (one way or the other), and faith (being: belief, in the absence of proof) is then useless, pointless, and contradictory.


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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-27-2017, 01:06 AM

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Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
Care to give an example?
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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-27-2017, 03:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Laurence Niles View Post
Have you even read the Bible(KJV1611)?

2nd Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
Deuteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Psalm 12:6-7 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

The answer is right in front of you if you care to look.

YIC
I am aware of the fact that the bible does say that it is the word of God. But how can you be sure that parts or all of it weren't fabricated? It could be that someone wrote down his own words, claiming them to be the words of God. How can you discount that possibility without recourse to the bible itself?

Quote:
Nothing created God. He created Himself. And before you cry 'special pleading' it doesn't apply to God because He create Himself.

Otherwise what would stop it from being 'turtles all the way down'?
I'm not entirely sure how something can create itself. How can something that doesn't exist yet create anything? Also, I don't see what's wrong with having "turtles all the way down". If there is no uncaused cause, then it must be the case that this is true.

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Originally Posted by Didymus Much View Post
I'm not asking you to defend the existence of God (impossible task), I'm asking you to defend your belief that God exists. You must base it on something more than your ignorance of science.
I'm not exactly sure where you get the idea that I'm ignorant of science. Though I'm no scientist, I have general knowledge of basic scientific theories. Anyways, you're asking me to defend my belief in God, and though I think I've already done so relatively adequately, I shall proceed to elaborate upon that defence. Since you have complained that it is based on my apparent (in your opinion) ignorance of science, I will base it on logic.

So, the thing I am trying to prove here is that God exists.

My propositions:

(1) There is no uncaused cause.
(2) Laws require an intelligence to be written.
(3) Natural law is an integral part of the universe.

These three propositions, in my opinion, are obvious. So, given that those propositions are true, here is what logically follows:

The universe must have a cause, since according to (1), there is no uncaused cause. What then is the cause of it? Well, the universe is governed by natural law, and according to (2), those laws must have been written by some intelligence. Because of (3) and (2), the cause of the universe must have been intelligent. This intelligence is what we can call God.

QED

If you believe that my argument is flawed, then I eagerly await your rebuttal. Hopefully you won't accuse me of obfuscation this time, as my argument seems quite clear.

Quote:
Think about it. If there was proof, he would know (one way or the other), and faith (being: belief, in the absence of proof) is then useless, pointless, and contradictory.
To the contrary, it is not contradictory at all. The definition of faith is "complete trust or confidence in someone or something". If you know something to be true, then you have trust and confidence in it, and thus you have faith in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MitzaLizalor View Post
Huaorani
I meant nations in the sense of countries rather than in the sense of tribes. In the sense that I meant my observation holds. Nevertheless, this does not actually have any bearing on my argument.
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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-27-2017, 04:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
I am aware of the fact that the bible does say that it is the word of God. But how can you be sure that parts or all of it weren't fabricated? It could be that someone wrote down his own words, claiming them to be the words of God. How can you discount that possibility without recourse to the bible itself?
Many reasons! Please let me list here the most obvious ones, as you (see below) are the one who thrives in obvious, experiential thinking patterns!
  1. Eyewitness testimony. There are the words of those people who actually lived and witnessed the events during Biblical times. Furthermore, lots of archaeological evidence supports the Bible. For instance, there are descriptions of cities that have been confirmed with archaeology. See also Genesis 10:11.
  2. There is the testimony of us True Christians™. Our lives have been changed and these wonderful, awesome changes are consistent with the Bible! See also Luke 1:47.
  3. Look at the prophecies in the Bible. They have been fulfilled! Daniel Chapter 2 predicted the Roman empire and much more. For reference, see Daniel 2:34.
  4. There is the unique and miraculously consistent nature of manuscripts of the Bible during a time when there was only illiteracy, unreliable greedy scribes and slow methods of communication. See also Psalms 12:6.
Quote:
I'm not entirely sure how something can create itself. How can something that doesn't exist yet create anything? Also, I don't see what's wrong with having "turtles all the way down". If there is no uncaused cause, then it must be the case that this is true.

I'm not exactly sure where you get the idea that I'm ignorant of science. Though I'm no scientist, I have general knowledge of basic scientific theories. Anyways, you're asking me to defend my belief in God, and though I think I've already done so relatively adequately, I shall proceed to elaborate upon that defence. Since you have complained that it is based on my apparent (in your opinion) ignorance of science, I will base it on logic.

So, the thing I am trying to prove here is that God exists.

My propositions:

(1) There is no uncaused cause.
(2) Laws require an intelligence to be written.
(3) Natural law is an integral part of the universe.

These three propositions, in my opinion, are obvious. So, given that those propositions are true, here is what logically follows:

The universe must have a cause, since according to (1), there is no uncaused cause. What then is the cause of it? Well, the universe is governed by natural law, and according to (2), those laws must have been written by some intelligence. Because of (3) and (2), the cause of the universe must have been intelligent. This intelligence is what we can call God.

QED

If you believe that my argument is flawed, then I eagerly await your rebuttal. Hopefully you won't accuse me of obfuscation this time, as my argument seems quite clear.
The rebuttal

You're recycling some old Catholic arguments (Tomism). The "uncaused cause". As both us (the True Christians™ based on Genesis 1:1) and secular scientists (based on the biggest banging ever) know that the Universe had a beginning does not mean from the secular viewpoint that it has a cause. This is the danger of plunging into a debate with the atheist swarm, such as Mr. Much. They have found no way to dismiss the Bible when it is discussed in the context of it having already been accepted as an Authority (as we do). However, when you start to do cosmology with them, you are lost.

Please, let me elaborate.

First, your argument is based on personal testimony and not evidence. You refer to your own fallible mind. You're not sure, you think, in your opinion, you don't see... These are anecdotes, not evidence, not unbiased observations. For the secular scientists, they can be used as hypotheses is an adequate number of people make the same observation or present the idea. As it happens, an adequate number of people have made these assertions so they've been examined.

First, you claim that your propositions are true because they are "obvious". This is, again, just personal testimony and also a fallacy, an appeal to reason. Unreasonable things can still be true (1 Corinthians 1:18). If the claim of uncaused cause fails, so does your whole string of proof. In fact, there are multiple other hypotheses in addition to the first "uncaused cause".
  • Two equal causes.
  • Multiple causes.
  • There are phenomena, such as radioactive decay, that can only be described in probabilities but not direct causality as to when and which radioactive nucleus will decay.
However, the strongest objection to your claim comes from Jocaxian nothingness. If nothing (the void - they got that much right, the secularists; Genesis 1:2) preceded something, then the "nothing" was also without rules. By placing there a rule (the most common is "something cannot come out of nothing" but your claim "there must be a first cause" is a close second), the "nothingness" is no longer a void. Essentially, your proposition violates the state of things before there was something. The Jocaxian nothingness has no rules, nor requirements. Thus, it requires no rule of the "first cause".

Of course, there are also other issues. One is that causality being a factor in the Universe does not automatically mean that the same rule should apply to things that are not parts of the Universe. There is also the possibility that there was a first cause but that is died out. There is the infinite regress. There is circular causality. You have chosen one lame apologetic view and neglected the basic rule of logic and science - to seek for data that contradicts your preconceptions, not only data that support them.

The only escape from this is to understand that all this is delusion. God wants us to concentrate on the Bible and on Bible only. As for myself, every minute I spend away from God's Word is a struggle. I still sometimes remember the lure of the secular explanations but because of Jesus I now know what they are!

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


We could go on with your propositions 2-3, such as your equivocation (a fallacy) of law=natural law, but, as said, the first cause hypothesis is the first stumbling block when it comes to debating secularists, so further steps are not necessary.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


2 Kings 18:25 - Am I now come up without the LORD against this place to destroy it? The LORD said to me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.



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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-27-2017, 08:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
I am aware of the fact that the bible does say that it is the word of God. But how can you be sure that parts or all of it weren't fabricated? It could be that someone wrote down his own words, claiming them to be the words of God. How can you discount that possibility without recourse to the bible itself?
God is the most powerful thing in existence. Why would He lie?

You see, the reason many people hate Him and say He would lie to us (His Blood Bought chosen) is because they don't like how True Christians live by a golden moral code that sets us apart from the unSaved™ masses that we are admonished to live apart from.

2 Corinthians 6:14–17 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,"

You see bad people call Jesus a liar for one reason and one reason only.

That's right: anal sex

You see, the homersexualist has to lie through his uneven teeth to lure an eager, clean limbed young youth on the brink of adulthood into his web of anal terror (rape- legitimate).

You see, that's what atheism is all about: a clarion call to abominationalism where youths with the vaguest hint of wispy downy fluff of their golden cheek are turgidly lied to, plied with drugs and ritual defiled to a back drop of the MTVs and the My Spaces and the Nintendos.

So when you ask whether the Bible(KJV1611) is a lie, just think about ritual Satanal abuse of this nation's youth: is that really what you are saying?

Shame on you, young lady!

YIC


1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-27-2017, 03:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
I meant nations in the sense of countries rather than in the sense of tribes. In the sense that I meant my observation holds. Nevertheless, this does not actually have any bearing on my argument.
As we have seen, the Huaorani nation has no laws. That actually destroys your argument. Saying that their status as a nation must conform to your definition is not a way to win souls; how would you feel if one of them turned up and denounced wherever you hail from as not..according to their lexicon..qualified to call itself a human nation?

Now the papists had attempted to impose catholic laws on them, via Spaniard interference, whether or not they knew anything about it which they probably didn't. That sort of cultural destruction is not something we celebrate today. There are many other lawless nations around, their names often containing words like "Democratic" or "Unity" or "The Former" but I would not recommend visiting any of them. That more-or-less covers your point (2) which brings us to (3).
Quote:
(3) Natural law is an integral part of the universe.
No it isn't.

Quote:
If you believe that my argument is flawed, then I eagerly await your rebuttal.
The thing never got up to start with. Not all nations have laws. Simply rejecting nations not having laws as not being nations is fallacious. Perhaps you could let me know which fallacy is involved? It's almost a textbook example so should be fairly easy to identify. As for the universe, well you need to demonstrate that it's regulated by "natural law" and not in a state of chaos. That would be great
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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-28-2017, 12:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
Eyewitness testimony. There are the words of those people who actually lived and witnessed the events during Biblical times.
Ok. Is there any reliable eyewitness testimony of the resurrection outside of the bible?


Quote:
However, the strongest objection to your claim comes from Jocaxian nothingness. If nothing (the void - they got that much right, the secularists; Genesis 1:2) preceded something, then the "nothing" was also without rules. By placing there a rule (the most common is "something cannot come out of nothing" but your claim "there must be a first cause" is a close second), the "nothingness" is no longer a void. Essentially, your proposition violates the state of things before there was something. The Jocaxian nothingness has no rules, nor requirements. Thus, it requires no rule of the "first cause".
Your strongest objection is actually quite easy to reject. Jocaxian nothingness cannot exist. If a JN-Object were to exist, then this means that existence itself exists. So, the JN-Object would contain the entity "existence", which is a contradiction, because it does not contain anything. Therefore nothing cannot exist, and thus the assertion "Something cannot come out of nothing" is true.

With that out of the way, let's examine your other objections.

Quote:
Of course, there are also other issues. One is that causality being a factor in the Universe does not automatically mean that the same rule should apply to things that are not parts of the Universe.
That rule actually must apply to all things. If something comes out of something, then the latter something caused the former something. Because, as I have proved, something cannot come out of nothing, the universe must have come out of, and hence been caused by, something. Causality still applies to that something, because it must have been caused by something else, just as this universe was.

Quote:
There is also the possibility that there was a first cause but that is died out. There is the infinite regress. There is circular causality. You have chosen one lame apologetic view and neglected the basic rule of logic and science - to seek for data that contradicts your preconceptions, not only data that support them.
I'm not arguing for a first cause. In fact, a first cause contradicts my proposition that there is no uncaused cause. The cause of the universe is only one link in a chain of infinite regress.

Quote:
We could go on with your propositions 2-3, such as your equivocation (a fallacy) of law=natural law, but, as said, the first cause hypothesis is the first stumbling block when it comes to debating secularists, so further steps are not necessary.
In regards to my proposition (2), I am not guilty of equivocation; there is no ambiguity. In both cases, I am using the same definition of law, "A system of rules". Human societies are governed by a system of rules, just as the universe is governed by a system of rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MitzaLizalor View Post
That more-or-less covers your point (2)
No it doesn't. If you read proposition (2), you will find that it does not state that all nations have laws. Whether or not all nations have laws is of no relevance to it.

Quote:
As for the universe, well you need to demonstrate that it's regulated by "natural law" and not in a state of chaos.
It can be demonstrated that it is governed by natural law by the fact that there are things that you physically cannot do, such as walk through walls. The universe has rules that prevent you from doing so. If the universe was in a state of chaos, then there would be no rules, and hence you should be able to walk through a wall without any problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Lawrence Niles View Post
God is the most powerful thing in existence. Why would He lie?
I'm not claiming that God lied. I'm claiming that whoever wrote the books of the bible may have lied.

Quote:
So when you ask whether the Bible(KJV1611) is a lie, just think about ritual Satanal abuse of this nation's youth: is that really what you are saying?
No that's not what I'm saying! How can simply questioning a book lead to sex abuse?

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Shame on you, young lady!
I'm a MAN
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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-28-2017, 01:17 AM

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Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
...I'm a SEXIST MAN
FTFY.


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Default Re: I'm Confused! - 07-28-2017, 01:27 AM

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Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
It can be observed that all nations have laws. These laws all had to be written by someone; they didn't just pop into existence on their own. The same it is with the laws of nature, like gravity, electromagnetism, and etc. If a god didn't write those laws, then who did?
Hello Mr. Confused.


It seems to me that you are comparing apples with elephants here. Human laws are rules of conduct which are formed, modified, and abandoned over time, as seen in history. For example, the laws of ordeal which were very respected through all antiquity have been abandoned in more modern times.


On the other hand, laws of nature are unchangeable. Metal always conducts electricity, not just on Tuesdays. Gravity always affects bodies of matter, it will not be changed after a while.


Hence, your assumption that these two types of laws are comparable or equal to each other is a huge leap of faith which from a scientific point of view is flawed.


Quote:
Plus, as I've mentioned, the universe has to have been created by somebody, as there are no uncaused causes.
Then, who created the creator of the creator?


In every respectable mythology even the first gods have to be born out of something else.

Quote:
And yes, you are correct in saying that this does lead to that question. I propose that this god perhaps dwells in an overarching universe, which was created in turn by another god. And that other god in turn was created by another, and so on and so forth, in an infinite chain, such that everything is created by something else. This neatly solves that problem, and I believe is a superior explanation to the one commonly accepted, that the universe magically poofed into existence.
Yes. The earth rests on a giant turtle, and that turtle on another turtle, and there are turtles all the way down.


Unfortunately, this does not answer the question what the lowermost turtle stands on, or in your case - where does the first of the long line of creators come from.


Quote:
Indeed, that does not. But how do you know that the bible is infact the word of God?
I find it somewhat ironic that it was an atheist, Mr. Much, who told you that faith and evidence are mutually exclusive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
I'm not exactly sure where you get the idea that I'm ignorant of science.

Probably because your line of thought is full of logical inconsistiences.


Quote:
These three propositions, in my opinion, are obvious.
I hope that I've explained in clear enough terms that they are not.


Quote:
To the contrary, it is not contradictory at all. The definition of faith is "complete trust or confidence in someone or something". If you know something to be true, then you have trust and confidence in it, and thus you have faith in it.
No. If you know something then you know it, period. If you don't know something for certain then you have to rely on faith.


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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Bible Re: I'm Confused! - 07-28-2017, 04:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
(3) Natural law is an integral part of the universe...What then is the cause of it? Well, the universe is governed by natural law, and according to (2), those laws must have been written by some intelligence. Because of (3) and (2), the cause of the universe must have been intelligent. This intelligence is what we can call God.
Me: equivocation.
Quote:
In regards to my proposition (2), I am not guilty of equivocation; there is no ambiguity. In both cases, I am using the same definition of law, "A system of rules". Human societies are governed by a system of rules, just as the universe is governed by a system of rules.
OK. I understand better now. You used the concept "natural law" (which still is not the same as a written law) when you were in fact referring to physical "laws of nature". Natural law is a philosopical concept. It is not the collection of formulae that "govern" natural phenomena. You should get your definitions in order before making claims. Let us see what "natural law" means.
Quote:
Natural law, in philosophy, a system of right or justice held to be common to all humans and derived from nature rather than from the rules of society, or positive law.
There have been several disagreements over the meaning of natural law and its relation to positive law. Aristotle (384–322 bce) held that what was “just by nature” was not always the same as what was “just by law,” that there was a natural justice valid everywhere with the same force and “not existing by people’s thinking this or that,” and that appeal could be made to it from positive law. However, he drew his examples of natural law primarily from his observation of the Greeks in their city-states, who subordinated women to men, slaves to citizens, and “barbarians” to Hellenes. In contrast, the Stoics conceived of an entirely egalitarian law of nature in conformity with the logos (reason) inherent in the human mind. Roman jurists paid lip service to this notion, which was reflected in the writings of St. Paul (c. 10–67 ce), who described a law “written in the hearts” of the Gentiles (Romans 2:14–15).
If we disregard the Papist "St." we can see that this is quite a good definition. However, you obviously did not have this in mind (how could we tell?) when your wrote your assertion. You were referring to physical laws.
Quote:
"inferred from particular facts, applicable to a defined group or class of phenomena, and expressible by the statement that a particular phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions be present."
This means that physical laws derive from observations whereas natural laws are inherent in the psyche. In addition, physical laws are True™ only because there have not been contradictory observations but there might be one day (very different from the Laws of God I might say). They are also more like definitions in mathematical terms.

As we can see, there are some similarities between physical laws and written laws. However, there are also many differences. Physical laws (disregarding the notion that we might have erred about them) leave no room for disobedience, as they are inherent in the material structure and thus everything is bound by them. While God's given laws should be the same, mankind is still free to trespass and sin. In fact, physical laws would leave no room for sin. Second, physical laws are statistical and unpredictable at the quantum level. This is a realm not assessed by God's Law or natural law. If you simply state that they are both "a system of rules" you are most definitely making an equivocation and also boasting about it. You are basically choosing a definition of your own and expecting that others humbly follow it.

With this prelude we are ready to assess the other part of your testimony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
Ok. Is there any reliable eyewitness testimony of the resurrection outside of the bible?
Why would we need that?

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


In fact, this leads us to...
Quote:
Your strongest objection is actually quite easy to reject. Jocaxian nothingness cannot exist. If a JN-Object were to exist, then this means that existence itself exists. So, the JN-Object would contain the entity "existence", which is a contradiction, because it does not contain anything. Therefore nothing cannot exist, and thus the assertion "Something cannot come out of nothing" is true.
Your claim goes back to the "inexistent nothingness" rebuttal. Basically, it is a word play that begs the question.The Jocaxian nothingness is not actually a philosophical concept but a physical one; again, you're equivocating. It is simply the secular concept for the simplest state of things before something. Its definition of having no rules (or it having existence) is actually not a rule, as this state of affairs may (in the secular definition) also change. If you go further into "then that is the rule" you're just playing with words.

Even more importantly, you're asking the question "Why does existence exist", just formulating it in a more complex manner to confuse your readers (although you're mostly confusing yourself which you very wisely admit with your username!). This is an invalid question as it implies that you already have to appeal to something that exists to explain existence or non-existence. The secular philosopher will notice this and see that this inevitably leads to having "something" out there that is the cause. This makes your statement a stolen concept and in fact a complex question. This is the same thing that you tried to do with "natural law" - using the concepts of mundane laws or Divine Laws to explain physical laws although in addition to some similarities, there are also important differences.

Again, in the atheist population, your definitions do not hold water and they know this. That is why we teach aspiring Believers such as yourself to rely on the Bible only.

You're also making special pleading for consciousness as if it was automatically necessary in cosmology. We know that consciousness is needed but by examining John 20:29 we understand that it can never be explained to the secular mind in a world that is governed (in their mind) by the uncertainly principle. This leads us to...
Quote:
I'm not arguing for a first cause. In fact, a first cause contradicts my proposition that there is no uncaused cause. The cause of the universe is only one link in a chain of infinite regress.
Then why would you need consciousness for our universe or any other? The consciousness might be a infinite amount of Universes away. Or not. By increasing complexity in the manner of an automaton at every step you can reach complexity without concious intervention. The first step may be a random event as described by some atheists.
Quote:
In this paper, we present such a proof based on the analytic solutions of the Wheeler-DeWitt equation (WDWE). Explicit solutions of the WDWE for the special operator ordering factor p=-2 (or 4) show that, once a small true vacuum bubble is created by quantum fluctuations of the metastable false vacuum, it can expand exponentially no matter whether the bubble is closed, flat or open. The exponential expansion will end when the bubble becomes large and thus the early universe appears.
Can you see? The atheist philosopher is concerned about the physical universe. Not Natural Law but Physical Law. Words 'n games can never convince them as they can calculate the math and find ways to show us that it is possible to have a Universe without preceding consciousness. Even this possibility is enough to collapse the only True™ Faith that it Jesus Christ!

1 Corinthians 15:13-14
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.


Your path is a dangerous one. You're not totally lost as you still have the notion that some-kind-of-a-being-or-an-entity-must-have-been-there-sometime-somewhere. You're very close to losing even that last straw of Hope. Your last defenses are the word play and the equivocations. I'm not trying to make you lose that Hope but to return to the actual Faith®, as your small beliefs are inadequate to get you into Heaven (John 3:18).

Basically, you're in a Limbo. You're using the philosopy of Tomists and ID proponents but disregarding the notion that the realm of modern cosmology is beyond such word play. Simultaneously, you've dismissed the Faith® of John 20:29. You're replacing these with your own musing by choosing some bits of each paradigm but failing to make your world view coherent. You're making up simplistic definitions of complex phenomena - straw man versions of both Faith™ and Physics.

Our answer is of course Jesus. You don't have to choose that. Physical law is useless here as our God can walk through your walls (Exodus 3:14). The Law of God is useless in the World of Cosmology as there the cat is dead and alive. I may be wrong and you may be the one to reconcile these paradigms but you really have to work harder.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


2 Kings 18:25 - Am I now come up without the LORD against this place to destroy it? The LORD said to me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.



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Bible Re: I'm Confused! - 07-28-2017, 06:43 AM

Dear sinner,

There is one more proposition of yours that we have to assess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImConfused View Post
(2) Laws require an intelligence to be written.
(3) Natural law is an integral part of the universe.

These three propositions, in my opinion, are obvious.
Once again, these are something that you claim are "obvious". The one in question now is if laws really require an intelligence to be written. We now have to separate some issues from this proposition.First: We do know that laws are written by an intelligence. God.

Exodus 18:20
And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.


Second: While we know that God did write the Laws, the question remains if it has to be so. Do Laws really require an intelligence to be written? It may seem obvious but simply assuming so makes your claim causal oversimplification.

You mentioned natural law (obviously, in the false context), and by examining (from the atheist perspective) natural law we can assess this question. Do Laws require an intelligence to be written? Natural Law tells us that not necessarily. Please see my previous post for reference.
Quote:
...a system of right or justice held to be common to all humans and derived from nature rather than from the rules
A Law that does not need to be written. Even in the Bible, this is also mentioned

Romans 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...


Again, we know that God made the natural law, but was it necessary? Could the sense of right and wrong arise from natural selection? If it could, then Law could be produced without any guiding intelligence. I am now entering the very dangerous area of science where many a Christian™ has lost his Faith®, so be careful to remember that we're just teaching you how to combat atheists without the Bible and to see how well it works. (it won't).

As it turns out, the ideas of right and wrong do not have to be taught but are apparently inherent in the human infant (which is important also from the Spiritual perspective as it means that children will be condemned unless they choose Jesus voluntarity; John 3:16-18).
Quote:
The earliest signs are the glimmerings of empathy and compassion—pain at the pain of others, which you can see pretty soon after birth. Once they’re capable of coordinated movement, babies will often try to soothe others who are suffering, by patting and stroking.
The sort of research that I’ve been involved with personally, looking at the origins of moral judgment, is difficult to do with very young babies. But we have found that even 3-month-olds respond differently to a character who helps another than to a character who hinders another person.
In fact, morality can be found even in unclean animals (Leviticus 10:10), such as dogs and rats!
Quote:
Dogs are prone to bouts of envy and refuse to play if they are not treated fairly, scientists have found.
The animals stopped cooperating with researchers and began to show signs of distress if they were not offered the same tasty rewards given to other dogs, the study showed.
Affronted dogs refused to offer their paws when invited to and began scratching and yawning, indicating that their stress levels were rising, the scientists report.
The finding suggests that dogs may share the sense of fairness seen in other social animals that engage in cooperative behaviour, such as monkeys.
Quote:
untrained laboratory rats will free restrained companions and this helping is triggered by empathy (Ben-Ami Bartal, I., Decety, J., & Mason, P. 2011. Empathy and pro-social behavior in rats. Science 334, 1427-1430). They’ll even free other rats rather than selfishly feast on chocolate.
As you can see, this is much more compassionate than what we can expect from the average sinner. It also leads us to the possibility that Laws do not have to be written by an intelligence as they can be the by-products of eusociality - a way to propagate genetic material into the future by cooperation and empathy. You can still claim that the original program that makes organisms prone to "natural law" was written by God but, as the physicists have shown, it is not necessary!

From something we know (God did write the laws) we cannot deduce that the laws had to be written by God. This makes your proposition crumble and leads us to...

...big trouble!

If the laws of compassion etc. are genetically determined, then the Laws of God that lead us to Heaven are not the only possible outcomes of such laws. This means that the mess we can see in the world is just mutiny against one possible set of laws (God's) but not against the basic baby laws of compassion and empathy and assistance. This would mean that the extra definitions of good (worship, Fear of God (Ecclesiastes 12:13)) are not inevitable outcomes of the law. Nor would be extra definitions of evil (female emancipation, unnatural fornication as in Romans 1:26-28) be actually evil in the context of compassion, empathy and assistance. This would lead countless sinners away from Heaven and this is exactly what we see happening. These lost souls (please do not join them) only follow the seemingly nice advice by Darwin!
Quote:
...they were ready to aid their fellow-apes of the same troop in many ways, to risk their lives for them, and to take charge of their orphans; but they would be forced to acknowledge that disinterested love for all living creatures, the most noble attribute of man, was quite beyond their comprehension
Only by knowing the Bible can we tell that this "law" - the product of eusociality and natural selection - is the false law, it is fails to contain the detailed instructions on how to get to Heaven.

To conclude, your proposition fails. The atheist will not be persuaded. Laws do not necessarily require an intelligence to emerge. The laws of the society can be made more detailed by an intelligence but it would be a genetic fallacy of origins to claim that they cannot arise without intelligence. The laws that emerge from the "natural law" can be very diverse and contradictory regarding the notion of a Deity. Your mess of equivocations and personal testimonials instead of evidence will not help convice the atheist. Only Jesus can do that and we're here to show them what the Bible contains and that only by accepting it blindly (John 20:29), can the physical laws of death and decay and the eventual whining downward spiral of the secular Universe into heat death and evaporation of the blackest holes into nothingness (but not Jocaxian) by Hawking radiation be avoided.

****************************************

The physical laws of the secular Universe do not require an intelligent designer to be written but the supernatural laws of Salvation do! Everything can be made new!

****************************************

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth
: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.



Yours in Christ,

Elmer


2 Kings 18:25 - Am I now come up without the LORD against this place to destroy it? The LORD said to me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.



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