[Didymus Much]

Originally Posted by bungholesurfer666

Are we not going to talk about how he murdered millions of people?

Does this sound familiar? "And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Therefore, any of Mr. Hitler's alleged crimes against other members of humanity have no place in this discussion. OTOH, Ms. Frank's adherence to her hatred of Jesus is totally fair game:

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Ain't Christianity awesome?

[Titus Templeton]

I just want to remind everyone to be respectful when posting into this thread. We all know debating history can be quite heated.
But at the end we all share a common goal: To evaluate which of these two persons was better or worse in the eye of God.

This is not about the right or the left. This is about finding the historical truth using the word of God. I'm now quietly reading
this thread since a few weeks if not months as a neutral and objective observer and I think it has shown quite clearly that Anne Frank was a way worse person then Adolf Hitler.

[tomdstone]

Originally Posted by Titus Templeton

We all know debating history can be quite heated.

World War II was a horrible crime against humanity.

[Didymus Much]

Originally Posted by tomdstone

World War II was a horrible crime against humanity.

So much detestable violence on many sides, right?

[tomdstone]

Originally Posted by Didymus Much

So much detestable violence on many sides, right?

I agree.For example, many innocent children were murdered when the USA dropped the atom bombs.
Mostly all wars will have detestable violence. Pacifism seems better to me. Aren't Christians supposed to turn the other cheek?
I like the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses to refrain from fighting in any war. Of course, Hitler's gang put them in concentration camps to be gassed alive because of their aversion to violence.

[handmaiden]

Originally Posted by tomdstone

I agree.For example, many innocent children were murdered when the USA dropped the atom bombs.
Mostly all wars will have detestable violence. Pacifism seems better to me. Aren't Christians supposed to turn the other cheek?
I like the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses to refrain from fighting in any war. Of course, Hitler's gang put them in concentration camps to be gassed alive because of their aversion to violence.

If you have read the Bible, (which is the whole point of this website) you would know that The Almighty God rained down fire and brimstone upon the inhabitants of Sodom. That would have included children and itty-bitty babies.


Before that, He drowned the entire human race minus 8 people. Zero children were given passage on the Ark that saved Noah and his wife, three sons and daughters' in-law.


There is some scholarly examination of the body counts assigned to different wars and dictators and associated ethnic cleansings, but I imagine that God has the highest score what with the worldwide flood and all.


Therefore, violence and killing -- however unpleasant -- isn't the Worst Thing Ever. The truly worse thing is disobedience to God's Authority.


The whole Bible is revolves around this theme. Get right with God and you're good. Even genocide can serve His purpose. Flout God and you go to hell. You can live your life as a complete pacifist who feeds, clothes, and houses the poor and you still get the torture treatment in hell.


Those are the options presented to humanity according to the Bible. How are you prepared to deal with this information?

[tomdstone]

Originally Posted by handmaiden

How are you prepared to deal with this information?

Not very well, because I favor the use of diplomacy to avoid war.

[Basilissa]

Originally Posted by tomdstone

World War II was a horrible crime against humanity.

So was the Catholic Spanish colonization of the New World. What's your point? (Given that Bible is full of examples of God-approved genocides).

Originally Posted by tomdstone

Not very well, because I favor the use of diplomacy to avoid war.

That would have definitively worked with Hitler, especially if the diplomacy included handing him over all of Europe.

[handmaiden]

Originally Posted by tomdstone

Not very well, because I favor the use of diplomacy to avoid war.

The issue that I presented to you is that-- according to the Bible-- the entire human race is confronted with the choice to obey God or rebel against Him. Are you implying that you plan to negotiate with God? That's not how His system of justice works.


Setting aside that question, I never asked you for your input regarding international affairs. As a Bible-Believing Christian, I don't care about your perspective on international affairs and your ideas on how to avoid war.


According to the Bible, war is coming. Jesus WILL win. No negotiation needed.

[tomdstone]

Originally Posted by handmaiden

Setting aside that question, I never asked you for your input regarding international affairs.

The title of the thread mentions Adolf Hitler.

[tomdstone]

Originally Posted by handmaiden

The issue that I presented to you is that-- according to the Bible-- the entire human race is confronted with the choice to obey God or rebel against Him. Are you implying that you plan to negotiate with God? That's not how His system of justice works.

The Holy Bible says Blessed are the peacemakers. That is what I believe in - peace and making peace. Matthew 5:9May the peace of the Lord be with you and yours.

[tomdstone]

Originally Posted by Basilissa

So was the Catholic Spanish colonization of the New World. What's your point? (Given that Bible is full of examples of God-approved genocides).



That would have definitively worked with Hitler, especially if the diplomacy included handing him over all of Europe.

I am opposed to murder of American Indians. I also believe that the annexation of Mexican territories by the Americans in 1848 was unjust and wrong. It was wrong for Americans to murder 6000 Mexicans who were only defending their country and then to steal all that territory from Mexico. Stealing is wrong according to my reading of the Bible. I am for peace and for avoiding war by diplomacy. I think that it is better to be a peacemaker than a war-maker. I don't understand why Americans like to be in so many wars, killing so many innocent people. Have you ever heard of the My Lai massacre where hundreds of innocent women and children were gunned down in cold blood by American soldiers? And they tried to cover it up and deny the whole thing ever happened?
The Bible that I have says Blessed are the peacemakers. That is what I think is right. It is better to have peace and avoid war.

[Basilissa]

Originally Posted by tomdstone

I am opposed to murder of American Indians. I also believe that the annexation of Mexican territories by the Americans in 1848 was unjust and wrong. It was wrong for Americans to murder 6000 Mexicans who were only defending their country and then to steal all that territory from Mexico. Stealing is wrong according to my reading of the Bible. I am for peace and for avoiding war by diplomacy. I think that it is better to be a peacemaker than a war-maker. I don't understand why Americans like to be in so many wars, killing so many innocent people. Have you ever heard of the My Lai massacre where hundreds of innocent women and children were gunned down in cold blood by American soldiers? And they tried to cover it up and deny the whole thing ever happened?
The Bible that I have says Blessed are the peacemakers. That is what I think is right. It is better to have peace and avoid war.

Why are you against your own church on this - don't you know that the Catholic Church has started or at least incited more wars in Europe than any other religion?

[handmaiden]

Originally Posted by tomdstone

I am opposed to murder of American Indians. I also believe that the annexation of Mexican territories by the Americans in 1848 was unjust and wrong. It was wrong for Americans to murder 6000 Mexicans who were only defending their country and then to steal all that territory from Mexico. Stealing is wrong according to my reading of the Bible. I am for peace and for avoiding war by diplomacy. I think that it is better to be a peacemaker than a war-maker. I don't understand why Americans like to be in so many wars, killing so many innocent people. Have you ever heard of the My Lai massacre where hundreds of innocent women and children were gunned down in cold blood by American soldiers? And they tried to cover it up and deny the whole thing ever happened?
The Bible that I have says Blessed are the peacemakers. That is what I think is right. It is better to have peace and avoid war.

At this point, I think that I have figured out what is going on in your head. If you had been crucified back then instead of Jesus, the subsequent history of the church going forward would not have included any wars, murders or genocides; because you are just that wise and right-thinking. If we all go along with your intepretation of who God is and what God wants, it will be heaven on earth, right?


So what are your thoughts on all the wars and genocides that God commanded before He graciously--but mistakenly--sent His Son to die on the cross instead of you?

[tomdstone]

Originally Posted by handmaiden

At this point, I think that I have figured out what is going on in your head. If you had been crucified back then instead of Jesus, the subsequent history of the church going forward would not have included any wars, murders or genocides; because you are just that wise and right-thinking. If we all go along with your intepretation of who God is and what God wants, it will be heaven on earth, right?


So what are your thoughts on all the wars and genocides that God commanded before He graciously--but mistakenly--sent His Son to die on the cross instead of you?

My thoughts are this:
Matthew 5:9

[Elmer G. White]

Originally Posted by tomdstone

My thoughts are this:
Matthew 5:9

Dear Friend,

That is a magnificent verse and something to cherish during those times of our lives when the orders of God or Jesus do not overrule it. You are swell aware that the Bible contains also other kinds of advice from Jesus.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

This may seem contradictory to an uneducated mind, but if we look at some more prophecies, everything becomes crystal clear!

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

This may take place during the next 48 hours! What should we do?

Joel 3:10
Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

Who will also wild a sword and smite billions of sinners? Jesus! The sword He promised will make its appearance!

Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:21
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Jesus will not be a mild, cotton candy leader. He is going to lead with an iron rod! There is going to be a War like no War before. Jesus will lead the troops Himself!

Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

So, you can see, there is the time for peace and gentle persuasion of sinners to join Jesus. War can be righteous! When the gentle persuasion fails for the majority of the Earth's population, Jesus will eventually go into war against that majority and demolish them, and even the events during Noah's Flood will dwindle into insignificance compared with the massacre on unbelievers and false believers that Jesus will administer. There is time for everything, or did God lie when He wrote the following astonishingly poetic and beautiful verses?

Ecclesiastes 3:8
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[tomdstone]

Originally Posted by Elmer G. White

War can be righteous! ....There is time for everything, or did God lie when He wrote the following astonishingly poetic and beautiful verses?

Ecclesiastes 3:8
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

That might have been true in the past, but with today's horrific weapons, innocent people are bound to suffer and die in any war. I can't go along with dropping nuclear bombs on innocent people. Should a Christian agree to nuclear war and the murder of millions of women and children because some politician thinks that this latest American war is a righteous one?
Is it OK for Americans to massacre hundreds of civilian women and children, shooting them on the spot and then attempt to cover it up as was done in the case of the My Lai massacre? Politicians said that the Vietnam war was a righteous cause.

[Didymus Much]

Originally Posted by tomdstone

My thoughts are this:
Matthew 5:9

Yeah, but you have to remember that this is Jesus we're talking about. "Peacemaking" can be achieved by destroying your enemy completely, and many of His ancestors did just that.

[Elmer G. White]

Originally Posted by tomdstone

That might have been true in the past, but with today's horrific weapons, innocent people are bound to suffer and die in any war. I can't go along with dropping nuclear bombs on innocent people. Should a Christian agree to nuclear war and the murder of millions of women and children because some politician thinks that this latest American war is a righteous one?
Is it OK for Americans to massacre hundreds of civilian women and children, shooting them on the spot and then attempt to cover it up as was done in the case of the My Lai massacre? Politicians said that the Vietnam war was a righteous cause.

Dear sinner,

The content of an act does not determine its Spiritual Goodness. If a nuclear strike is commanded by an unbeliever, it is by definition bad, similar to any unbeliever actions, such as rescuing people from a burning house or distributing leaflets on evolution. This is hard to understand and we would not be able to comprehend it if we didn't have the Bible.



Psalms 14:1
(To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

The verse above tells us that an unbeliever only does evil things. Thus, the religious character of the person determines the quality of her deeds. That is what we should judge, not the actions. Jesus will consider them in due course (Revelation 20:15), but based on His commandments (John 3:18), we can presume with high probability that He will be mostly concerned with the acts of Faith™.

The weapons of mankind are horrific. We all agree on that. Still, they are peanuts compared to the havoc that Jesus will unleash upon the sinners! As a warning He is first going to destroy only one third of the biosphere and its inhabitants (at least 2-3 billion deaths with a single blow).

Revelation 8:9
And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 9:17-18
And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

As this will not be enough to convince the sinners, Jesus will destroy the rest of the biosphere and burn people alive.

Revelation 16:3
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Revelation 16:9
And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Vietnam becomes insignificant. Hiroshima becomes a playground. Rwanda will no longer matter. They will become mere skirmishes conducted by amateurs compared with the handiwork of Jesus Christ. You surely agree that His War will be righteous, don't you?


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[tomdstone]

Originally Posted by Didymus Much

"Peacemaking" can be achieved by destroying your enemy completely, ...

This is the mentality of many Americans - they will wage war and murder people to bring about peace. IMHO, it is better to use diplomacy and third party negotiations to bring about peace. How many more years will Americans remain in Afghanistan? How many more people will be killed as a result of this occupation?