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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-03-2017, 05:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
Matthew 26:26-29
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdstone View Post
Catholic teaching, as I understand it, is that this is to be taken literally. As is John 6:51-54.
Think that underhanded tactic is going to fly in here, you sneaky asshole? Only quote the part of Elmer's citation of Matthew that agrees with you, and ignore the rest:

Matthew 26:29 "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."

Bolded is the bit where Jesus Himself says the stuff is still wine.

If that's Catholic teaching, then aren't they ignoring what Jesus said (which was Elmer's whole point, you thick duplicitous twat)?

Quote:
...As is John 6:51-54.

Trying to make horse soup, or what?


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Rebuke Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-03-2017, 05:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
...your misunderstanding of the Bible as a whole regarding the last supper probably derives from the dismissal of some pivotal verses after Matthew 26:26. We must examine them!

Matthew 26:26-29
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Please see above the post and the verses that I posted. Now, please see below how these verses were manipulated by a Catholic proponent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdstone View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
Matthew 26:26-29 [???]
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Catholic teaching, as I understand it, is that this is to be taken literally. As is John 6:51-54.
Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not
bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

In fact, Mr. Tomdstone, your "argument" basically just repeats my post. As I stated, the Catholic church dismisses other parts of the Bible that would show us, how Jesus did not mean Matthew 26:26 to be taken at face value. In addition, you've omitted Matthew 26:29 from your quote but still show it on the Title of your Bible citation. Your citation is, in fact, Matthew 26:26-28.

Was this deliberate? Furthermore, you did not assess the actual issue at all, not the other issues that I raised. I do know that it is very hard to raise above your preconceptions but you could try a bit more, don't you think?


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-03-2017, 09:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didymus Much View Post
Think that underhanded tactic is going to fly in here, you sneaky asshole? Only quote the part of Elmer's citation of Matthew that agrees with you, and ignore the rest:

Matthew 26:29 "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."

Bolded is the bit where Jesus Himself says the stuff is still wine.

If that's Catholic teaching, then aren't they ignoring what Jesus said (which was Elmer's whole point, you thick duplicitous twat)?




Trying to make horse soup, or what?
The accidental appearance is wine, but the substance is not according to the Catholic teaching.
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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-03-2017, 09:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
Please see above the post and the verses that I posted. Now, please see below how these verses were manipulated by a Catholic proponent.

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not
bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

In fact, Mr. Tomdstone, your "argument" basically just repeats my post. As I stated, the Catholic church dismisses other parts of the Bible that would show us, how Jesus did not mean Matthew 26:26 to be taken at face value. In addition, you've omitted Matthew 26:29 from your quote but still show it on the Title of your Bible citation. Your citation is, in fact, Matthew 26:26-28.

Was this deliberate? Furthermore, you did not assess the actual issue at all, not the other issues that I raised. I do know that it is very hard to raise above your preconceptions but you could try a bit more, don't you think?


Yours in Christ,

Elmer
The Catholic teaching on transubstantiation or the similar Orthodox teaching on metousiosis explain this since the accidental form remains bread and wine, while the substance has changed. It is not wrong to refer to the accidents of the Sacrament.
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Rebuke Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-04-2017, 03:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdstone View Post
The Catholic teaching on transubstantiation or the similar Orthodox teaching on metousiosis explain this since the accidental form remains bread and wine, while the substance has changed. It is not wrong to refer to the accidents of the Sacrament.
The issue is that several passages of the Bible oppose your claim; not what the Greek Orthodox claim and not if they agree with you. A simple opinion that fails to assess the data you've been presented with is not argumentation, just a continuation of your habit of stating personal testimonials and opinions as facts, a continuation of confirmation bias by dismissing all data that oppose your claim. For instance, you've failed to explain why you presented the passage from Matthew 26 in a form where you deprived it from the verse that does not agree with you.

I've assessed this elsewhere, as you've been spreading these unsubstantiated sentences on other threads, too. Please, surprise us. Show us that you've not fallen to the trap described by Isaiah:

Isaiah 44:18
They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

Make this conversation meaningful. If you continue ignoring the data that were presented to you, be not surprised if no-one will be interested in your unsupported claims any longer.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-04-2017, 05:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
Make this conversation meaningful.
It can be meaningful to those who understand the Catholic teaching on Transubstantiation. For a start to begin to understand this teaching, you can read the wikipedia article:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation
After reading that, an interested person can read what the Catholic encyclopedia says:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#3
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Prayer Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-04-2017, 05:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdstone View Post
It can be meaningful to those who understand the Catholic teaching on Transubstantiation. For a start to begin to understand this teaching, you can read the wikipedia article:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation
After reading that, an interested person can read what the Catholic encyclopedia says:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#3
We are very well aware of what the Catholics claim. These claims have been opposed by us by using the Bible. You must now construct a useful argument of your own based on not only the sources that you like and cherish but also by assessing the data that do not support you. This will not be possible by referring to an online encyclopedia that has been written by unknown authorities.

You must go back to the basics (as indicated elsewhere for your personally), understand the difference between opinion and evidence. An article that tells how the Catholics believe does not mean that their beliefs are based on the True Word™ of God. You really do need an education about the basic concepts of hypothesis, proof, and falsification. Being a parrot is not wisdom. This is very sad.

Ecclesiastes 10:3
Yea also, when he that is a fool walketh by the way, his wisdom faileth him, and he saith to every one that he is a fool.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-04-2017, 05:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
Being a <font color="#008000"><b>parrot </b></font>is not wisdom. This is very sad.
Very true. That is what I was thinking also.
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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-04-2017, 06:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
We are very well aware of what the Catholics claim.
I am very well aware that the Poincare conjecture has been proven recently by a brilliant Russian mathematician. However, at this point in time, I do not understand the proof and further study is required for my understanding. Similarly, the fact that someone is very well aware of Catholic claims on Transubstantiation does not necessarily imply that he will understand the teaching. That is why I gave the two links above. Further study may be required for those who do not understand this teaching.
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Jesus Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-04-2017, 06:11 AM

Dear Brethren and Sisters,

This is what we're dealing with. False Christians come and argue but never ever actually answer the questions that they find too difficult. This is no surprise, as God warned us that this would happen.

Nehemiah 9:16
But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and hearkened not to thy commandments,

Thankfully, our fathers have chosen the correct path!. Let us revise some of the questions that Catholics never answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
...your misunderstanding of the Bible as a whole regarding the last supper probably derives from the dismissal of some pivotal verses after Matthew 26:26. We must examine them!

Matthew 26:26-29
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

In your educated opinion, did Jesus lie? First He says that "This is my body" but in Matthew 26:29 He still claims that the substance remains"this fruit of the vine"...

In 1 Corinthians we are informed about the practices of the first True Christians™.

1 Corinthians 11:25-16
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this
cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

...You should be assessing the most pivotal points of Catholic doctrine, such as Jesus being unnecessary to Salvation (as evidenced in your Catechism, where paragraph 841 states that theists, especially Muslims, who ignore Jesus are first and foremost among those destined to Heaven), and Faith in God™ also being unnecessary to Salvation (regarding atheists). Do you think that believing in the cannibalism is a prerequisite for Salvation if Jesus Himself isn't?
No answer and even a vile atheist can ask the right questions, where the Catholics fail!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Didymus Much View Post
Matthew 26:29 "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."

Bolded is the bit where Jesus Himself says the stuff is still wine.

If that's Catholic teaching, then aren't they ignoring what Jesus said ***some profanities removed***?
No answer...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
...you've omitted Matthew 26:29 from your quote but still show it on the Title of your Bible citation. Your citation is, in fact, Matthew 26:26-28.

Was this deliberate? Furthermore, you did not assess the actual issue at all, not the other issues that I raised. I do know that it is very hard to raise above your preconceptions but you could try a bit more, don't you think?
I then mentioned I the dismissal of our legitimate questions made us sad and weary. However, no answer was received, instead...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdstone View Post
Very true. That is what I was thinking also.
I had high hopes that finally someone would actually assess the points that we raise. I am afraid that once again, the Catholic doctrine remains unsubstantiated and a tu quoque response is the best we can receive.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-05-2017, 12:28 AM

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Originally Posted by tomdstone View Post
I am very well aware that the Poincare conjecture has been proven recently by a brilliant Russian mathematician. However, at this point in time, I do not understand the proof and further study is required for my understanding. Similarly, the fact that someone is very well aware of Catholic claims on Transubstantiation does not necessarily imply that he will understand the teaching. That is why I gave the two links above. Further study may be required for those who do not understand this teaching.
Sweetie,


you have been shown over and over and over again that the Catholic belief is wrong because it stands in clear contradiction of the Holy Bible. I will not repeat what has been already said but I do recommend that you read Dr. Elmer's posts. The passages in bold red and blue are directly from the Bible, and they clearly show that Catholics are wrong.


Therefore, it is pointless to try to understand why Catholis believe what they believe - it's wrong either way. It's like trying to understand where the 72 virgins for each Muslim martyr come from. They don't exist either way because the Muslim belief is wrong. Q.E.D.


I hope that was helpful.
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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-05-2017, 08:11 PM

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Originally Posted by tomdstone View Post
Actually, John 6:51-54 does make sense to a believing Christian, but since I have been given an infraction by a mormon moderator after bringing up this quote, I don't see any point in continuing the discussion. I only hope that people who claim to be Christian will reread John 6:51-54. Of course, if you are a heathen who is set on taking pleasure in mocking religion, you will not accept what is written there.
As God is absent in the Church of Rome, in order that miracles may be done in accordance with
John:14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
the Whore of Babylon took the simple solution and lied - "Priests can perform miracles, and here is a miracle...".

There is no miracle. Nothing happens. You may as well have a cracker. The essence is simply to remember Jesus. The minions of the AntiChrist like to mock God and deceive the people and once having succeeded then they sit around screaming with demonic laughter because of one their number has invented as really stupid "explanation" (or as they say "an apology".)

This idea of transubstantiation has been going on for a few thousand years now and still the Beast of The Seven Hills of Rome has still not stopped telling the joke because its weak-minded slaves are all nodding and defending the indefensible. (<sigh> It makes Mormons in magic underwear look positively intelligent.

Let me remind you of how miracles are certified in the Satan's Temple of Lust:

A committee decides if a miracle happened by asking themselves: "Is there any reasonable explanation for what has happened?" If they cannot find one, then it is a miracle.

This speaks more of the ignorance of Catholics than the robust qualities of the system. I give you "The Miracle of the Herring"
After his death, Thomas Aquinas was considered for sainthood but nobody could find a miracle to attribute to him – a necessity for canonization until someone remembered that, on his deathbed, said, “Oh, I really fancy a herring. Some herrings, have we got some herrings?”

Now, they’re in the Mediterranean, where there are no herrings, so they thought, “We’ll give him some pilchards, he won’t know.” So they gave him some pilchards, and he went, “Mmm. Very [good]. They’re the best herrings I’ve ever tasted!”

And so the Catholic Church decided to interpret that as the miracle of the herrings: that the pilchards had turned to herrings in his mouth. And therefore he qualified as a saint, and therefore he is to this day St. Thomas Aquinas.
Now, what seems more likely, Aquinas, dying, had no idea what he was eating, or there was a miracle?





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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-13-2017, 01:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
Thomas Aquinas … ?
I've read the Scripture references. Clearly what this heretic was up to was eating and drinking damnation to himself.

I CORINTHIANS 11 . KJV . look up
27
Whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29a For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself

What would be the first thing to check for Thomas Aquinas if he were to examine himself? Remember, he's pretending to be a theologian. Surely he'll have read The Ten Commandments? The bit about worshipping God and not obsessing over hideous idols chief among which must be the DEAD JESUS monstrosity? Satan would love for Jesus to be still dead. From the perspective of anyone who actually believed what The Bible commands to be important this would be the first thing. "Am I about to celebrate the most blasphemous idol ever conceived?" he should ask during his self-examination. A quick glance around would reveal idols, idols to which this sacrament is dedicated. If it were not so Aquinas would either destroy all the idols or leave the Romish cult. He did neither.

God is always consistent. He does not say one day:
DEUTERONOMY 4 . KJV . look up
15
Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
19a And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven,
19b and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven,
19c shouldest be driven to worship them

..and the next day recommend tantric massage for all newcomers as a sort of introductory offer with free tarot cards and a bag of idols. If Thomas Aquinas or any other catholic actually believed what God said they would not have idols and would examine themselves to avoid damnation. Just as God spelled out so plainly. It's not as though He said ONLY and EVER to build stone buildings one day and the next day said, "Oh, and you can paint it tartan or polka dots or puce & aqua zigzags if you like," because whether it's stone has nothing to do with how you paint it. God could reveal the extra details by revelation at any time without contradicting Himself.

Blatant frauds, on the other hand, do the opposite. They don't care what God has already commanded. They just tell you to do whatever they feel like and chop your head off if you read The Bible. Or burn you alive. And it's easy to tell if they're frauds. Just read The Bible. I have. That's how I know what it says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdstone View Post
claims on Transubstantiation … gave the two links above. Further study may be required for those who do not understand this teaching.
Why would anyone want to understand contrary teaching when we have The Bible? Its message is straightforward and easy to understand. It's unnecessary to guess which bits are true and which bits are lies because it's all true. Additional links are not called for because we understand God's message already. And as for study to appreciate something different, why should anyone take your word for it that yours is the correct denial of reality? What about Norse mythology or Maori traditions? How do you know they're not the real delusion? After all, they also contradict God. Perhaps next time you see your guru you could ask for an answer on that point.

It will be interesting to see what you come up with.
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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-14-2017, 05:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post

No answer...

I then mentioned I the dismissal of our legitimate questions made us sad and weary. However, no answer was received, instead..
The answer was given already. And the links on Transubstantiation give more detail.

Reference can be made to the essence or to the accidents.
The essence is the Blood of Christ.
The appearance is the wine.
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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-19-2017, 01:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdstone View Post
The answer was given already. And the links on Transubstantiation give more detail.

Reference can be made to the essence or to the accidents.
The essence is the Blood of Christ.
The appearance is the wine.
Thank you for your patience and for answering the question for a second time. Now you can answer mine:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MitzaLizalor View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdstone View Post
claims on Transubstantiation … gave the two links above. Further study may be required for those who do not understand this teaching.
Why would anyone want to understand contrary teaching when we have The Bible? Its message is straightforward and easy to understand. It's unnecessary to guess which bits are true and which bits are lies because it's all true. Additional links are not called for because we understand God's message already. And as for study to appreciate something different, why should anyone take your word for it that yours is the correct denial of reality? What about Norse mythology or Maori traditions? How do you know they're not the real delusion? After all, they also contradict God. Perhaps next time you see your guru you could ask for an answer on that point..
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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-19-2017, 11:41 PM

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Originally Posted by MitzaLizalor View Post
Thank you for your patience and for answering the question for a second time. Now you can answer mine:
<<Why would anyone want to understand contrary teaching when we have The Bible?>>
Catholics don't think that the words of Jesus Christ are contrary to the Bible. He said: this is my body... this is my blood.
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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-20-2017, 03:00 AM

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Originally Posted by tomdstone View Post
<<Why would anyone want to understand contrary teaching when we have The Bible?>>
Catholics don't think that the words of Jesus Christ are contrary to the Bible. He said: this is my body... this is my blood.


You do understand the concept of a parable, do you, sweetie?

Or do you actually believe that you are committing a cannibalistic act every Sunday, eating human flesh and drinking human blood?

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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-20-2017, 04:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basilissa View Post

Or do you actually believe that you are committing a cannibalistic act every Sunday, eating human flesh and drinking human blood?

However you want to describe it, this is what the Holy Bible says: John 6:23 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."
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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-20-2017, 04:50 AM

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Originally Posted by tomdstone View Post
However you want to describe it, this is what the Holy Bible says: John 6:23 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."
Sorry, was a typo. Should be John 6:53.
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Default Re: Question for Catholics about the eucharist - 08-20-2017, 05:14 AM

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Originally Posted by tomdstone View Post
However you want to describe it, this is what the Holy Bible says: John 6:23 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."
Big font for the hard-of-hearing time:


PARABLES. DO YOU GET THEM?


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