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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 01:53 AM

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Originally Posted by BarrKingMad View Post
I'm sorry that, while you were composing the sequel to War and Peace, you forgot to address my question, too. It's a bit surprising, actually, since, unlike Brother Cletus, you seem to have a functioning mind. Have you perchance been taking obfuscation lessons from Ms. Phelps-Dodge? Anyway, why are you so afraid to answer a simple question about your faith? Are you ashamed of the things you believe?
I'm sorry, among your incessant attacks upon my God, my friends, my Church, and my person, I missed any question from you which has not been repeatedly answered.

What's your question? Do I think Jesus was a great teacher?

Jesus is God. Jesus is THE Teacher, also THE Father, THE Son, THE Comforter, THE Enforcer of His Law.

Any other questions? And are you able to ask them without stringing together enough insults to decorate your pagan anti-Christmas tree?
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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 01:59 AM

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Originally Posted by One-eyed Jack View Post
Now then! You are a Unitarian, therefore you have religious beliefs. What might the Atheist and the Bible Believer ask you?
Indeed I do. As for the questions of the athiests and Bible believers, they are good questions (though some seem a bit irreverant). I invite the athiests and Bible believers alike to visit our discussion forums and ask away--or, better yet, to stop by any Unitarian Universalist church and experience the joy of a shared, loving, and accepting Spiritual experience firsthand.

Quote:
These verses are unambiguous. But God's Law is not meant for Christians, IT IS MEANT FOR MANKIND. It is for God's Kingdom, and all the Earth and all mankind is God's kingdom.
Excellent. I stand corrected.

Now that you've set me straight with respect to the moral authority of Jesus, perhaps you could enlighten me as to your views of the Apostles and the KJV translation committee. Is every word in the 1611 King James Version of the New Testament absolutely and literally true, or are the Gospels and other writings merely the work of fallible men that might contain misstatements or misquotations?
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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 02:00 AM

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Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
Finally, an answer to my question. There is at least one Evangelist at Landover, after all. You do think that the teachings of Jesus are a necessary component to leading a moral life. Hallelujah, we agree on at least one thing.
In case you missed it, we have all been saying the same thing to you. We believe in every single utterance. Why haven't you answered our questions about the sodomites?



To you agents of false religions and atheists...
Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the Lord weigheth the spirits.
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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 02:08 AM

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Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
Hi, everyone. I'm a recently ordained Unitarian Universalist minister. One of my parishoners, who, in tears, pointed me to this site as an example of a few bad apples spoiling all that is good and bountiful that the Lord has given to us. To tell the truth, I think maybe she understated the case, but I don't think tears (honest expression of a valid emotion though they certainly were) are the right answer. Truth comes only from understanding and openness and charity toward those who harbor a different viewpoint.

One thing that strikes me as funny right off the bat is the way you seem to revel in negativity. If your only point is that there are cruelties and contradictions in the Bible, you won't get an argument from me. I have studied the Bible, along with Scriptures from many world religions. I find something good, something useful in my quest for spiritual development, in all of them, but they were written by men (and, in a few cases, by women). Mankind does err, and mankind does sin, so it's not surprising to see that reflected in holy writings. There's a lot more to God than stonings and historical inaccuracies in a book, though.

If you really want to bring others closer to the God that is inside all of us, I don't see how it helps your cause to insult a highly moral man like the Catholic priest Father Martin or to call everyone who disagrees with you a homosexual (I'm not a Catholic or a homosexual, but I wouldn't take it as an insult if you said that I were).

So I'd like to take the high road and look for some common ground with the Baptistry of Landover. Let's start here: I believe that Jesus Christ was a great moral teacher, in fact, the greatest moral educator ever. Do you agree?
When people take LSD and have demons appear to them, the demons often say such things "Moral Educator," instead to "Son Of God" when trying to gain their confidence. The LSD you have taken has confused you to no end. Every Unitarian takes LSD every day
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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 02:35 AM

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Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
I appreciate your fastidious adherence to the Bible's sartorial ordinances. It is obvious that you are truly a man of the cloth. However, I'm more concerned with moral fiber than I am with the composition of your dungarees and shirts.

Just so I'm clear on this, you are saying every single Old Testament law is binding in its entirety on all Christians today, without exception, right? I'm sorry to be repetitive (especially after I have criticized the wordiness of Landover), but it seems to me that this point is the lynchpin of all that separates your doctrine from that of most other Christian denominations. I want to be sure that our discussion rests on a firm foundation.
I assure you friend I am more moral fiber that two shredded wheats.

Except were Jesus teachings modify it friend and of course as Romans reminds us were prohibited by secular law. That is why for instance we do not stone sinners as God directs, due to oppressive, anti-Christian secular law we are commanded to obey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
Now that you've set me straight with respect to the moral authority of Jesus, perhaps you could enlighten me as to your views of the Apostles and the KJV translation committee. Is every word in the 1611 King James Version of the New Testament absolutely and literally true, or are the Gospels and other writings merely the work of fallible men that might contain misstatements or misquotations?
The KJV1611 is the true Bible, translated into English by God using the committee as human pens. The other Bibles are false with their source in Satan since they are based on a version of The Bible found in the trash in an Egyptian monastery. The word of the all-knowing, all-powerful God is not lost in the trash or distorted by mere mortal men.



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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 02:43 AM

StarrKingGrad, perhaps you have come to Landover to mock fundamentalist Christianity. To slyly imply that Bible literalists are not merely woefully misguided cretins but also opposed to enlightened humanism, predisposed to authoritarian theocracy, and are moral cripples who have traded rational thought for UNTHINKING BELIEF!

Well, as the Good Book says:

And Huzzab shall be led away captive, she shall be brought up, and her maids shall lead her as with the voice of doves, tabering upon their breasts. Nahum 2:7

Be not like Huzzab! And be not like her handmaidens! Taber not upon your breast with rhythms syncopated and satirical.

Mock not, lest God find you a mockernut.

Interesting word, mockernut. The mockernut hickory grows up to 80 feet tall; it received its name because its fruit -- a nut -- has a very thick rind but a very small kernel. Metaphorically it is like unto certain humans: thick-skulled but with only a tiny brain.

(No, I was not thinking of Bush supporters when I wrote that. Bush is God's Own President, he said so himself.)

I see I am in my cups. Alas.

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. 1 Timothy 5:23


Or, in my case perhaps, a couple of 20-oz cans of Black Ice Malt Liquor ("the brand with added grain alcohol for that extra-smooth intoxication").

Alright, I will mince no more words. The Christian Right supposes -- CORRECTLY -- that the Bible mandates an absolutist religion and an authoritarian theocracy. Since the Enlightenment the foundational assumptions of Christianity has been selectively ignored. In America, however, Christian fundamentalists are no longer ignoring the dominionist mandate. And they have made good progress in getting their people into the mainstream of government. In seizing the high places of power.

This is what they write:

Quote:
Those who are obedient to His commands will rule the world, reconstructing it for His glory in terms of His laws. Psalm 2 shows God laughing and sneering at the pitiful attempts of the wicked to fight against and overthrow His Kingdom....He has, in fact, warned all earthly rulers to submit to His government, or perish (Ps. 2:10-12). And the same is true of His Church. The nation that will not serve us will perish (Isa. 60:12); all the peoples of the earth will be subdued under our feet (Ps. 47:1-3)--promises made originally to Israel, but now to be fulfilled in the New Israel, the Church.

David Chilton, The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation (Ft. Worth, TX: Dominion Press, 1984), p. 117. (emphasis added)
So let us mince no more words. Mince may be marvellous, but words make a poor porridge. Are you with us or against us? Do you stand against Christian totalitarianism, or are you in sympathy with it?

And, if you are not in sympathy with it, have you come here to mock it?

~~ OEJ
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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 03:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
Just so I'm clear on this, you are saying every single Old Testament law is binding in its entirety on all Christians today, without exception, right?
Of course not. Some of the OT laws were explicitly abrogated in the NT, such as those that required circumcision or forbid working on the Sabbath, for example. All OT laws that were not specifically repealed in the NT are still in effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
Are you familiar with Colossians 3:8-14? If so, what does it mean to you? Has that ever been a topic of a Landover forum discussion?
I believe we had one on an earlier version of the forum, but that is not still up. We have a Bible in a Year forum now, and we should get to Colossians sometime this summer.

But to answer your earlier question, yes, I am very familiar with Colossians, as I am with the rest of the Bible. We at Landover take the passage you mentioned to heart. We never speak with anger, wrath, malice, evil, or filth-talking. We don't lie or act like our old selves before we got saved. We believe that all people can become saved, no matter what color they are, how bad they smell, or how ugly they are.

Finally, if we didn't love you, we wouldn't keep trying to get you saved, friend.

Pastor Billy-Reuben


Upon request I will cite scripture for all these facts in God's Holy Word.

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Last edited by Pastor Billy-Reuben; 01-25-2008 at 03:05 AM. Reason: Added link to Bible in a Year forum
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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 03:05 AM

Addendum no in festinatio:

Holy bowtie macaroni, StarrKingGrad, I looked into one topic on the BeliefNet forum. The particular thread I happened on was all about how people were finding themselves in Wicca and Satanism and paganism and "Buhdism" (sic! sic! sic! Two d's and the h comes AFTER!). BeliefNet? LooseSuperstitionNet!

Geez. Are there any serious threads on the forum or are they all for kids?

~~ OEJ
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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 03:07 AM

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Originally Posted by Joshua View Post
Why haven't you answered our questions about the sodomites?
Based on the way your avatar is dressed, what you refer to as sodomy is obviously more within your bailiwick than it is within mine. But you should be proud of your non-traditional sexuality, Joshua. Don't let these True Pastors or whatever they call themselves make you feel ashamed of your sexual feelings for other men. They aren't wrong, they aren't evil, they are just the way God made you. That, in a nutshell, is all the wisdom I can dispense to you on the topic of homoerotic love.

As for the repetition, I just want to be sure that nobody accuses me of misquoting you when we get to the point in this discussion where you will explain to me, and to the other unsaved trash who read this thread, why the many contradictions in the Bible are not contradictions at all. I simply don't want to hear in post 927 of this thread that some of Jesus's words may have been altered in transcription or translation. Best to clear up the ambiguities from the get-go, especially given the tendency in your forums toward stream of consciousness as a rhetorical device.

In truth, I am your best friend, since you can cover a lot more Biblical ground answering my questions than you can arguing with adolescent boys about the philosophical underpinnings of Super Mario Brothers, even if most of you are too dense to see it. Whatever your game, you guys really ought to work out some ground rules for how you deal with different kinds of posters.

Of course, if you're worried that I might convince a few lurkers that there is a positive, life-affirming religious path that does not discount science or differences of opinion or human feelings or ambiguities in sacred texts or plain common sense, you might as well shut this thread down now, because, if God has a plan for me, that's it.

So, to return to the topic at hand, if you do not believe that every word of the KJV 1611 Bible is literally and unambiguously true, now is the time to speak up.
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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 03:17 AM

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Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
Of course, if you're worried that I might convince a few lurkers that there is a positive, life-affirming religious path that does not discount science or differences of opinion or human feelings or ambiguities in sacred texts or plain common sense, you might as well shut this thread down now, because, if God has a plan for me, that's it.
That is the least of my worries, friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
So, to return to the topic at hand, if you do not believe that every word of the KJV 1611 Bible is literally and unambiguously true, now is the time to speak up.
I believe every word of the KJV 1611 Bible is literally and unambiguously true. The King James Bible is God's Word to English speaking people.

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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 03:19 AM

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Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
Based on the way your avatar is dressed, what you refer to as sodomy is obviously more within your bailiwick than it is within mine. But you should be proud of your non-traditional sexuality, Joshua. Don't let these True Pastors or whatever they call themselves make you feel ashamed of your sexual feelings for other men. They aren't wrong, they aren't evil, they are just the way God made you. That, in a nutshell, is all the wisdom I can dispense to you on the topic of homoerotic love.
I see you're as anti-diversity as the bigots of the NAACP or La Raza.

Joshua is SCOTTISH, and dressed in traditional Scottish formalwear. It's called a kilt.

Congratulations on fulfilling my expectations, and being unable to write a single post that was not filled with insults against God's people.

Quote:
Of course, if you're worried that I might convince a few lurkers that there is a positive, life-affirming religious path that does not discount science or differences of opinion or human feelings or ambiguities in sacred texts or plain common sense, you might as well shut this thread down now, because, if God has a plan for me, that's it.

So, to return to the topic at hand, if you do not believe that every word of the KJV 1611 Bible is literally and unambiguously true, now is the time to speak up.
There's no game here, little boy. And if you are here to argue that God's Word is not God's Word, you are only wasting your breath.


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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 03:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
Some of the OT laws were explicitly abrogated in the NT, such as those that required circumcision or forbid working on the Sabbath, for example. All OT laws that were not specifically repealed in the NT are still in effect.
Interesting. Here are a couple of verses from the OT that I'd like to explore:

Leviticus 20:10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:9: For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Have either of these laws been abrogated in the NT?

If not, is there any Biblical context that I did not quote that explains or modifies or limits either of these two verses in any way?

This is pretty important, since, after you convert me, I would hate to stone someone under circumstances that called for a lesser punishment, or none at all.

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We have a Bible in a Year forum now, and we should get to Colossians sometime this summer.
Yes, it is most informative. Another point of agreement--I, too, believe that everyone should study Holy Scripture.

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...I am very familiar with Colossians, as I am with the rest of the Bible. We at Landover take the passage you mentioned to heart... Finally, if we didn't love you, we wouldn't keep trying to get you saved, friend.
I confess that I have some doubts about how widespread the practice is at Landover, but I believe you are speaking from the heart, Pastor Billy-Reuben. If ever you should decide to leave the Baptist Church, you have within you the makings of a fine Unitarian.
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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 03:28 AM

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Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
As for the repetition, I just want to be sure that nobody accuses me of misquoting you when we get to the point in this discussion where you will explain to me, and to the other unsaved trash who read this thread, why the many contradictions in the Bible are not contradictions at all. I simply don't want to hear in post 927 of this thread that some of Jesus's words may have been altered in transcription or translation. Best to clear up the ambiguities from the get-go, especially given the tendency in your forums toward stream of consciousness as a rhetorical device.
There are no contradictions in the Bible friend. Were do you get such an odd idea?



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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 03:42 AM

SKG: "...arguing with adolescent boys about the philosophical underpinnings of Super Mario Brothers..."

OEJ: You don't know the half of it. Man. Still, it could be worse. We could be at a political caucus. */head explodes/*

SKG: "I am your best friend, since you can cover a lot more Biblical ground answering my questions..."

OEJ: Almost there. Not quite, though. We discuss not only the Bible but also superstitions like Wicca, Scientology, Hinduism, and Unitarian Universalism.

SKG: "Of course, if you're worried that I might convince a few lurkers that there is a positive, life-affirming religious path that does not discount science or differences of opinion or human feelings or ambiguities in sacred texts or plain common sense, you might as well shut this thread down now, because, if God has a plan for me, that's it."

OEJ: Odd...you did not answer the "atheist's" questions about the UU "Spirit of Life". You dodged 'em. I must say, in re "God's plan" for you...cobarde.

You are familiar, I suppose, with that blasphemous work Letter to a Christian Nation, by Sam Harris? Mister Harris' prime problem is that his prose exposition is exciting as oatmeal. But after slandering Our Lord most horribly, his point -- that religion is abrogation of rationality -- must be taken as an indictment as much of Unitarian Universalism as of Islamic fundamentalism.

Don't you think, lad? Or will you dodge that issue as well?

~~ OEJ
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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 03:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
Leviticus 20:10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:9: For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Have either of these laws been abrogated in the NT?
No they have not, but your next question is a great segue into a larger discussion on the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
If not, is there any Biblical context that I did not quote that explains or modifies or limits either of these two verses in any way?
Many people think John 8 is an abrogation of the penalty of stoning for adultery. It is not. Jesus is demonstrating that He and only He has the power to forgive sins, and He will forgive the sins of those who will "go, and sin no more."

We aren't allowed to stone people for these sins today, only because secular laws don't allow it, and we are commanded to obey secular laws (I Peter 2:13-15). However, once we get the laws changed to fit God's laws, and take this nation back for Jesus, it will be a whole new story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
I confess that I have some doubts about how widespread the practice is at Landover, but I believe you are speaking from the heart, Pastor Billy-Reuben. If ever you should decide to leave the Baptist Church, you have within you the makings of a fine Unitarian.
I will assume you meant that as a compliment, Skyclad, but I have been born again into the One True Faith.

Pastor Billy-Reuben


Upon request I will cite scripture for all these facts in God's Holy Word.

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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 03:45 AM

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Originally Posted by JennyD View Post
Joshua is SCOTTISH, and dressed in traditional Scottish formalwear. It's called a kilt.
Funny, I got the distinct impression that he was WELSH. Then again, I could be mistaken. How many Welshmen live south of Brighton?

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Congratulations on fulfilling my expectations, and being unable to write a single post that was not filled with insults against God's people.
Irony is simply lost on some people. More's the pity in your case, since I've read your writings here, and you have a fine analytical mind, when it's not wasted advertising to the world what a kilt is and whatnot.

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There are no contradictions in the Bible friend. Were do you get such an odd idea?
It must have been something I saw on the Internet. You will have ample opportunity to correct this mistaken notion.
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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 03:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben View Post
Many people think John 8 is an abrogation of the penalty of stoning for adultery. It is not.
Aren't you the crafty one, taking this discussion in the completely unanticipated direction of John 8. You do know your Bible.

It's getting late here in Berkeley, so I'm going to sign off now and bid everyone Peace. Perhaps on the morrow we can take up the vexatious question of why the Pharisees did not kill rebellious children, and what Jesus thought about that.
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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 03:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
Funny, I got the distinct impression that he was WELSH. Then again, I could be mistaken. How many Welshmen live south of Brighton?



Irony is simply lost on some people. More's the pity in your case, since I've read your writings here, and you have a fine analytical mind, when it's not wasted advertising to the world what a kilt is and whatnot.



It must have been something I saw on the Internet. You will have ample opportunity to correct this mistaken notion.

I was born in Scotland to God fearing Anglo Saxon English parents and have lived in Wales. I know Brighton Cardiff Bristol London Surrey Croyden Liverpool and Cornwall quite well. I served in the British Army hence the kilt.
You saw it here. I make no bones about my origins.



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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 04:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by One-eyed Jack View Post
Odd...you did not answer the "atheist's" questions about the UU "Spirit of Life". You dodged 'em. I must say, in re "God's plan" for you...cobarde.
He's not going to answer your questions, 'cause he obviously knows that his whole religion (or non-religion) is made up drivel. Next he'll probably start quoting Deepak Chopra. They always get around to quoting Deepak Chopra.

Quote:
You are familiar, I suppose, with that blasphemous work Letter to a Christian Nation, by Sam Harris?
Isn't Sam Harris the guy who denies God but believes in psychic powers? At least he understands that we need to torture a few Mooslims every now and then to keep America safe.



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Default Re: Hello From An Unrepentant Unitarian - 01-25-2008, 04:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
Funny, I got the distinct impression that he was WELSH. Then again, I could be mistaken. How many Welshmen live south of Brighton?
How many Negroes live west of Africa?

How many Mexicans live north of Berkeley?

Are we having a discussion, or compiling an atlas?
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarrKingGrad View Post
Aren't you the crafty one, taking this discussion in the completely unanticipated direction of John 8. You do know your Bible.

It's getting late here in Berkeley, so I'm going to sign off now and bid everyone Peace. Perhaps on the morrow we can take up the vexatious question of why the Pharisees did not kill rebellious children, and what Jesus thought about that.
Ah, dodging a Pastor's query yet again, and complaing that 8 pm is late.


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