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Default John 20:27, 28 and 29 - 04-15-2007, 01:08 PM

John 20:27
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Some time ago I came across these verses in the KJV, and I was stricken by them. It has been said on this site before that Unsaved Ones, such as I, are unable to fully comprehend the Holy Word because our ways are still of the devil. So that's why I wanted to discuss these verses here to check if I at least got the general idea of them.

The verses, especially the latter, speak clearly of faith before emperic research. Thomas was like a modern scientist, he had to see it to believe it, quite similar to the sceintific method we see today. Yet Jesus requires us to have faith in Him even without Him having to appear to us all (He has better things to do I presume). And even if people are unwilling to do so, they should at least be openminded regarding the existence of matters that cannot be observed. It is a statement for the True Christians, that their faith in Him is and will be appreciated and rewarded (blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.) but it is also a message to the secular world, a gentle nudge that suggests there is more to the world than meets the eye; God.

Of course the fact that the ones who believe without seeing are blessed implies those who don't believe without seeing aren't blessed and even damned. Yet if this is true, would that mean Thomas is damned as well for not believing without requiring Jesus to show himself as proof of himself?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to some the responses of the Godly pastors in particular, but any True Christian's reply is welcome of course.


John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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Default Re: John 20:27, 28 and 29 - 04-15-2007, 06:28 PM

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Originally Posted by R-R-R View Post
The verses, especially the latter, speak clearly of faith before emperic research. Thomas was like a modern scientist, he had to see it to believe it, quite similar to the sceintific method we see today. Yet Jesus requires us to have faith in Him even without Him having to appear to us all
Correct. God gave us free will - it is up to every one of us whether we choose to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. If Jesus showed up in person it would destroy our free will.

Even the old fathers like Origen (ca.185-254) knew this. In his Against Celsus, Vol 1, chapter 10 he wrote, "In the next place, since our opponents keep repeating those statements about faith, we must say that, considering it as a useful thing for the multitude, we admit that we teach those men to believe without reasons, who are unable to abandon all other employments, and give themselves to an examination of arguments; [. . .] ".

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Yet if this is true, would that mean Thomas is damned as well for not believing without requiring Jesus to show himself as proof of himself?
Sticking his fingers into our Lord's gaping wounds must assuredly have destroyed Thomas' free will. However, Thomas could do this with impunity, since Jesus had already promised the 12 apostles that they would be sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Time will show whether Judas Iscariot will get his promised 12th throne, or whether it will be taken by Matthias.


Holbein

1st Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1st Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1st Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
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Default Re: John 20:27, 28 and 29 - 04-16-2007, 11:43 AM

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Originally Posted by Prune Danish View Post
If Jesus showed up in person it would destroy our free will.
Why would this be a problem? I mean, isn't it better to believe than to be free? In case of secularists for example, who will only believe Jesus once they see Him. They would be damned to hell if they didn't believe, so a simple (for the Lord everything is simple I guess, being almighty and such) visit of Jesus or an angel or whatever could savlvage their souls. If their choice to ignore the existence of the Lord is taken away by such an act, wouldn't it be worth it? Or does Jesus prefer people to go to hell with a free will over having them accompany Him in heaven?


John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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Default Re: John 20:27, 28 and 29 - 04-16-2007, 07:47 PM

Friend, LIFE is like being in a rowboat on a journey to heaven.

You are born and placed into the boat. In order to get to heaven, you need to row that boat to the other side of the lake of life, where heaven is.

But how do you row that boat?

You need oars.

Do you know what those two oars are?

One oar is faith. In order to get to heaven, you have to have the OAR of faith.

The other oar, is works. In order to get to heaven, you have to have the OAR of works.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

If you just have one oar in the water, you will not be able to go across the lake, you will just be spinning in your boat.

Now think of all those Atheists and so called "free thinkers" who claim that they are nice people; don't do anything wrong; give to charity; donate time to the needy; volunteer (and other "nice" things) their boat spins in the water just as much as the so called "christians" who only have the oar of faith.

Friend, Thomas doubted (which is why he's called "doubting thomas") but then he believed.

Will you believe without being able to shove your hand into the gaping bloody wound on Jesus side?

Have you both oars in the water?

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Default Re: John 20:27, 28 and 29 - 04-17-2007, 11:12 AM

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Will you believe without being able to shove your hand into the gaping bloody wound on Jesus side?

Have you both oars in the water?

YIC
V
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by the oar of work, so before I can answer with a clear yes or no, I'd like to know this first. If it is what I think it is, living as the KJV requires us to, then I must admit I've only partly obtained that oar so far. I have been reading the KJV, but I don't know it fully and by heart. If this is required for the oar of work, then I guess I have an oar and a half so far but am working on it . At least the former question in the above quote I can answer with a yes (hence the one oar), but the 'living by the KJV' still needs improvement I guess...

If you mean something different with the oar of work, I trust you will let me know.


John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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Default Re: John 20:27, 28 and 29 - 04-17-2007, 02:47 PM

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Originally Posted by R-R-R View Post
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by the oar of work, so before I can answer with a clear yes or no, I'd like to know this first. If it is what I think it is, living as the KJV requires us to, then I must admit I've only partly obtained that oar so far. I have been reading the KJV, but I don't know it fully and by heart. If this is required for the oar of work, then I guess I have an oar and a half so far but am working on it . At least the former question in the above quote I can answer with a yes (hence the one oar), but the 'living by the KJV' still needs improvement I guess...

If you mean something different with the oar of work, I trust you will let me know.
Works are the things you do.

Works are what we are judged by.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Some people think that all you need to do is Believe in Jesus (but what is that belief, REALLY) and you get to heaven. Nothing could be further from the truth ®.

Think back to what Jesus HIMSELF said.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

WORKS, is DOETH.

Friend, do you DOETH?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There are but 2 options that Jesus laid out. 1. Doing the WILL of the Father. 2. Work Iniquity.

Where is the will of the Father laid out? Is it in the New Testament? There are a few commandments in the NT, like the Great Commission. Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


But most of the Laws (will of the Father) are in the OT, in Leviticus, and Exodus and the rest. The part that feel good pastors will gloss over. Saying it's not relevant today.

Friend, God doesn't change. His Will doesn't change. The same ACTIONS (Will; WORKS; DOETH) are the same today as when God commanded us to kill fags in Leviticus 20:13.

Are you a doer?

If you want to get to heaven, you'd damned well better be!

YIC
V
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Default Re: John 20:27, 28 and 29 - 04-17-2007, 09:25 PM

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Where is the will of the Father laid out? Is it in the New Testament? There are a few commandments in the NT, like the Great Commission. Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Are you a doer?

If you want to get to heaven, you'd damned well better be!

YIC
V
So works is doing the Lords will, and His will is to basically convert as many people as you can, correct? If that's the case, I'm not quite a doer, mainly because my knowledge of the KJV is not great enough that I could rightfully claim to be a True Christian and attempt to baptize people. I'd need to be more like one of the LBC pastors to do such a feat I think, which is of course not the case.

Yet my posts (at least try to) help discussions and rebuking sinners on and from the LBC site, His favourite forum. Can this be counted as being a doer?


John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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Default Re: John 20:27, 28 and 29 - 04-17-2007, 09:47 PM

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Originally Posted by R-R-R View Post
So works is doing the Lords will, and His will is to basically convert as many people as you can, correct? If that's the case, I'm not quite a doer, mainly because my knowledge of the KJV is not great enough that I could rightfully claim to be a True Christian and attempt to baptize people. I'd need to be more like one of the LBC pastors to do such a feat I think, which is of course not the case.

Yet my posts (at least try to) help discussions and rebuking sinners on and from the LBC site, His favourite forum. Can this be counted as being a doer?
That will get you to lukewarm status.

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Friend, that's God speaking there.

As for being like someone. Don't be like a man (even though the LBC pastors are quite holy); be like God.

Leviticus 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.

Be HOLY because GOD is holy, not because another man is holy.

Why would you think that a man could be more holy than you. That's a Catholic concept. There should be only one person between you and the Father. It's Jesus, not a preacher (regardless of how right he is; or that God ordained him, Himself).

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


So, lets review, you don't DO. You don't want to DO much. You think there are people who are holier than you. And you still want heaven.

Sorry, that's not the way it works.

YIC
V
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Default Re: John 20:27, 28 and 29 - 04-17-2007, 09:56 PM

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Originally Posted by R-R-R View Post
So works is doing the Lords will, and His will is to basically convert as many people as you can, correct? If that's the case, I'm not quite a doer, mainly because my knowledge of the KJV is not great enough that I could rightfully claim to be a True Christian and attempt to baptize people. I'd need to be more like one of the LBC pastors to do such a feat I think, which is of course not the case.
Don't worry about that. The holy spirit will guide you and speak in you:

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Son, the Holy Spirit is a wonderful gift. Jesus spent three years training his dumb disciples without much success, but at Pentecost the Holy Spirit descended on them like a dove and immediately the unlearned fishers started speaking fluent Greek. Just like that - Zap. The Holy Spirit works like a 100% pure high-speed broadband between you and God.

Now, go get them, Son.


Holbein

1st Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1st Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1st Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
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Default Re: John 20:27, 28 and 29 - 04-18-2007, 11:55 AM

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As for being like someone. Don't be like a man (even though the LBC pastors are quite holy); be like God.

Leviticus 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.

Be HOLY because GOD is holy, not because another man is holy.

So, lets review, you don't DO. You don't want to DO much. You think there are people who are holier than you. And you still want heaven.
Well, how am I supposed to be holy if I don't know how? I only mentioned being like one of the pastors because they have great knowledge of the KJV, which I thought to be required in order to succesfully convert people. I don't necessarily have to be like them in all aspects, I just need the knowledge they have. Or don't I?

It's not that I don't want to DO, it's just that I'm worried I might do it wrong. That might drive people further away from the Lord than they already are...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prune Danish View Post
Don't worry about that. The holy spirit will guide you and speak in you:
Well, it did work for Jesus but perhaps that's because He knew what He was talking about. The knowledge conveyed by the KJv is fairly new to me, so would it work the same way in my case?


John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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Default Re: John 20:27, 28 and 29 - 04-18-2007, 03:09 PM

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It's not that I don't want to DO, it's just that I'm worried I might do it wrong. That might drive people further away from the Lord than they already are...


Friend, if you have nothing, how can you get more nothing?

You are either with Christ, or against Him. Where do you stand?

Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

Do you gathereth, or scattereth?

What are your works?

YIC
V
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Default Re: John 20:27, 28 and 29 - 04-18-2007, 03:37 PM

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It's not that I don't want to DO, it's just that I'm worried I might do it wrong. That might drive people further away from the Lord than they already are...
As long as you proclaim the Biblical message, you will not be wrong.
If they oppose the truth, then they oppose the truth. No matter their reason!
For it is not God nor His message that should be changed, friend..
It's the sinners who will have to change if they are to be Saved, because God is already perfect and He change not (Malachi 3:6)..
And neither would He ever need to, because it is God who will judge the world, not the other way around:
No man could ever fault or judge God, nor His infallible Word.

As the Holy Bible says:
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Galatians 4:16

Think on that for awhile, are you to blame if someone cannot handle the truth?

As brother V pointed out: One is either with Jesus, or one is against Him.
Keep reading the Holy KJV1611 Bible friend, and don't question things so much.
Knowledge and understanding will come in time.


If thou be wise, thou shalt be wise for thyself: But if thou scornest, thou alone shalt bear it.
A foolish woman is clamorous: She is simple, and knoweth nothing.
Proverbs 9:12-13

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Default Re: John 20:27, 28 and 29 - 04-26-2007, 05:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SalvationSeeker View Post
Keep reading the Holy KJV1611 Bible friend, and don't question things so much.
Knowledge and understanding will come in time.
I will do so, thanks for the encouragement. Good thing I can somewhat practise here on the site, with all those satanists around.


John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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