[Titus Templeton]

We all know that homosexuals like to keep sex slaves and rape innocent Christians. What if this man was abducted and brought to that club against his will? What if hundrets of homosexuals in that club wanted to rape this guy? It is possible that he had no other choice then to make use of his rifles to keep the homers away from him.

[Johny Joe Hold]

Originally Posted by Titus Templeton

What if hundreds of homosexuals in that club wanted to rape this guy? It is possible that he had no other choice then to make use of his rifles to keep the homers away from him.

That is exactly the kind of factual information we need before we start making judgments here. There are laws that allow killing in self defense. There were 100 homosexuals in that bar and just one of this guy. Who is to say it was not just him defending his rights.

And, the press has not discussed religious freedom. Our country was established on the principle of religious freedom. It seems to me killing sinners might fall within the sphere of this basic right.

[Dr. Anthony J. Toole]

Before rushing to judgement, put yourself in his position: you find yourself in a gay nightclub at 3AM surrounded by queer men and you have a cocked weapon in your hand ready to unload upon them. What do YOU do?

[WinnerNotSinner]

Originally Posted by Dr. Anthony J. Toole

Before rushing to judgement, put yourself in his position: you find yourself in a gay nightclub at 3AM surrounded by queer men and you have a cocked weapon in your hand ready to unload upon them. What do YOU do?

You really cannot put too fine a point on this, I know what these clubs are like through my time preaching the good word to the homosexuals at Strawberry Bar in Bangkok.

Imagine the fear; there would be men dressed as women, men dressed as animals, men touching children. It would take a True Christian™ of an iron will not to take GOD's vengeance into their own hands.

Would you expect that kind of strength from a peanut butterface who has never touched a KJV1611?

Isaiah 40:31
31 But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

[Just Chris]

It might be true that he was victim but it could also be true the homosexuals were innocent. That why you are innocent until proven guilty. We must not rule out any possibilities but remember in the 10 commandments it states thou shall not kill.

[Elmer G. White]

Originally Posted by Chris-the-Knuckle-Head

It might be true that he was victim but it could also be true the homosexuals were innocent. That why you are innocent until proven guilty. We must not rule out any possibilities but remember in the 10 commandments it states thou shall not kill.

Now we can see where your problem is. Your ethics have been usurped by secular legislation.

"Innocent until proven guilty"? That is a human invention and totally contrary to the teachings of Jesus. In Christianity, they way it was supposed to be, you're always guilty unless Jesus Redeems you. Always. This was initiated during the Fall (Genesis 3:6) by the harlotry of the first woman.

Everyone is born guilty, as God transmits the sins of previous generations to offspring (Exodus 20:5). The only way not to be condemned of everything is to choose Jesus (John 3:18) and to follow His Orders (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

Always guilty. Next question: of what? The answer: everything!

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

The secular idea of innocence has produced more irrevocable harm than almost anything else ever. The secular court of law is the total opposite of the Celestial Judgment (Revelation 20:12). To make things even superficially compatible with the Christian world view, we should apply this principal to our courts. The accused should prove his innocence, it should not be the duty of the prosecutor to prove guilt. This is what Jesus would do. Unsaved persons are always guilty. Always. Of. All.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Just Chris]

My brothers and sisters we must not forget what the bible teaches us the passages of Romans 13:1 let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Romans2 therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, Romans 13:4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.Romans 13:5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.Romans 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.Romans 13:7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. According to this scripture the government was chosen by God and as such they follow God's will. So since our government follows the will of God then innocent until proven guilty is God's will.

[Just Chris]

I hate autocorrect it always messes with my typing I meant Romans 13:2 not Romans 2

[Elmer G. White]

Originally Posted by Chris-the-Knuckle-Head

My brothers and sisters we must not forget what the bible teaches us the passages of Romans 13:1 let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Romans2 therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, Romans 13:4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.Romans 13:5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.Romans 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.Romans 13:7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. According to this scripture the government was chosen by God and as such they follow God's will. So since our government follows the will of God then innocent until proven guilty is God's will.

Please, Dear Chris,

Try to absorb the Whole Bible (and in its perfect KJV form, not ESV [Extra-sensory Version? ) and you'll be less confused.

Let us examine this issue in detail.

Acts 5:29
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Now the atheist and the false Catholic or Muslim Christian would take this as contradictory when compared to Romans 13 or...

1 Peter 2:13
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

The answer is simple and plain. Of course we are to follow the secular law. We do that. We obey the orders but we must respect God's law more. We must strive to change the legislation when it opposes God's Commands, such as the basic axiom of everyone being guilty unless Redeemed by Jesus. We must not be complacent and idle and just accept that because God has nominated the leaders, He has not done it to test us.

Your stance is very difficult and your position accepts each and every legislation and equally Godly. If all secular authorities are appointed by God and hence good, should we follow also the laws of Iran and the Emirates and were the SS-officers really not at all responsible for their actions as they followed the secular law of the day?

Furthermore, did Jesus make a mistake when He mentioned that everyone is guilty (James 2:10), was Peter the Apostle wrong in Acts 5:29. Obviously, Paul was also correct but we must look at the Big Picture (in its KJV form and not the Extra-sensory Version) to understand the Bible correctly. Did Moses err in Exodus 20:5?


God will not be restricted according to our wishes. He tests us, and one way of testing us has been the travesty of justice of the "innocent unless proven guilty" system. God tricks sinners deeper and deeper into sin by causing them to believe these lies as Truths™:

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

This is, of course, necessary as it fulfills the prophecy of Jesus:

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Only a small minority will reach Heaven. This is what Jesus has told us. In your opinion, is He a liar? We as True Christians™ are happy to be among those few!


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

P.S. There's a "preview post" option at the bottom of the page box just below the post icons and the message box. If you use it, you'll get rid of the typos that annoy you. It's relatively easy to use.

[Just Chris]

You should follow the laws of Iran if you are in the country of iran. For the see Romans 13 is all about following the laws of the land. If I got England I will follow England's laws, if I go to Brazil I will follow Brazil's. These lands are different from our own and have different laws. Do you see what I mean or must I explain further.

[Just Chris]

Thanks for letting me know about the preview post button. It is my first day on this forum and I'm still learning about everything. Also how do I respond to messages that are sent to me. Also most people will be confused about the bible due to the contradictions in it, after all how can we simple minded imperfect beings hope to fully understand the Holy Lord himself. His Devine wisdom is incomprehensible to us. I'm sure all of us can agree on that. The other problem for most is trying to figure out if the bible is literal or allegorical. It might be a combination of both for all we know. The only one who knows for sure is the Lord himself for it is his words and not our own

[Elmer G. White]

Originally Posted by Chris-the-Knuckle-Head

You should follow the laws of Iran if you are in the country of iran. For the see Romans 13 is all about following the laws of the land. If I got England I will follow England's laws, if I go to Brazil I will follow Brazil's. These lands are different from our own and have different laws. Do you see what I mean or must I explain further.

No, I don't see it.

Picture yourself living in Germany, Hungary, Italy or Vichy France in 1942. Should you have exposed the Jewish children hiding in your basement to the authorities because it was the law of the land?

Should you persecute the rape victim and arrest her because it is the law of the land? Are you saying that things can be good and Godly in one country but evil if you live elsewhere? Is goodness thus determined by people and not God? So there are no universal guidelines for good and evil, only widely different laws and the definition of good changes once you step across a border? There would be a powerless god in lowercase letter that would change according to politics?

Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3:6 - For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Really?


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Just Chris]

Mr.white you make very good points that are very logical and compelling. I greatly accept your words on those matter. The woman should not be punished in the crime of rape. Also I do not agree with all law's, no one does, but those that are fair to all are the law's I will accept. Also its like I said the Divine Wisdom and words of the Lord are to incomprehensible for us humans to fully understand. We could never hope to figure out if the bible is literal or allegorical. I personally believe that it is a combination of both. Since it's the Divine words of the lord and not mine I could never hope to truly the know the truth and neither do you my brothers and sisters.

[Just Chris]

The main reason I believe in innocent until proven guilty is because we all make mistakes. Their are alot of times innocent people are arrested because they were set up, or the jury or judge didn't believe them. Due to this fact we shouldn't be so quick to say this person did or that one did without reviewing all the facts. Normally in this day in age it is very rare for the innocent to receive a guilty verdict due to our advancements in technology but for hundreds of years it was hard because it was impossible to gain as much evidence as we can now. I'm glad that eventually a good bit of those imprisoned falsely are eventually freed due to new evidence.

[Elmer G. White]

Originally Posted by Chris-the-Knuckle-Head

Mr.white you make very good points that are very logical and compelling. I greatly accept your words on those matter. The woman should not be punished in the crime of rape. Also I do not agree with all law's, no one does, but those that are fair to all are the law's I will accept. Also its like I said the Divine Wisdom and words of the Lord are to incomprehensible for us humans to fully understand. We could never hope to figure out if the bible is literal or allegorical. I personally believe that it is a combination of both. Since it's the Divine words of the lord and not mine I could never hope to truly the know the truth and neither do you my brothers and sisters.

Dear Chris,

I am so happy that you one of those who are willing to reconsider their position before overwhelming evidence.

I am, however, still worried about you. Let us look at this utterance:

Also I do not agree with all law's, no one does, but those that are fair to all are the law's I will accept.

To begin with, I do agree with all the Laws God Commanded, including all the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-26). The second point is to assess if laws are "fair to all". I surmise that this means that all trespassers are treated in a similar manner. I can assure you that in Dubai all women who report rape are treated as criminals and arrested in an equal manner. This is fair to all. Do you accept it? If not, then I suggest that you try to express yourself in a precise manner. I know that it is not easy. Millions of philosophers have struggled with ethics (mostly because they have failed to do Bible Study) during the 6 millennia of the Earth's Existence.

Next:

We could never hope to figure out if the bible is literal or allegorical. I personally believe that it is a combination of both.

Now, this is an appeal to personal ideas, an appeal to your personal authority. Can it be generalized to be applicable to others?Is it something I should accept? Do you have any idea whatsoever how you determine the allegorical and the literal parts that you refer to? You are on a path that has been taken countless times by the academic theologians with exegetics, literary criticism of the Bible, the "search for the Historical Jesus".

Do you know where that path leads? I know. When it is impossible to say which parts are allegorical, then we can easily presume that the Virgin Birth, the Crucifixion and Resurrection are allegorical. The Fall (Genesis 3:6) was allegorical, so there was no need to a literal Redemption, an allegorical one will do. "We can never truly know the truth" as you said.

Next "allegory": Did Jesus exist in the first place? When we take your path we are in a situation where the evidence is so one-sided (the Gospels) or unreliable (Josephus's account was according to the best literary criticism available an interposition, a forgery by early Christians) that we cannot tell this with certainty.

If we follow the evidence we cannot be certain but we can attach probabilities to diverse issues, for instance the historicity of Jesus. By following this reasoning we can see that many other religions, heretic cults, had similar teachings during the time of Jesus. Do unto others was introduced by Hillel. The Ascension of Isaiah claims that the Crucifixion and Ascension took place in outer space. Some source claim that Jesus chose to Incarnate one hundred years before the Biblical account. Paul never claims a corporeal Jesus per se but hints at mysteries not dissimilar to the Mithra cult.The "criterion of embarrassment" (who would lie about a shameful death on the Cross) becomes useless as it was the standard of the storytelling during that era (Romulus, Perseus, etc. etc.). Conclusion: We cannot know the True Truth™ but we can say that Jesus was probably not historical. Christianity was just another mystery cult of a Celestial entity unto whom the Gospels (principally Luke) later attached the historical frame by forgery.

If we follow you path we'll have to shift the Burden of Proof. Instead of atheists proving that God does not exist we'd have to prove that He does.

And that's only a start of the mess that emerges from the allegorical/literal debate. The Bible is not rocket science. It is a simple Book to be read and Obeyed (Ecclesiastes 12:13):

Psalms 12:6
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Of course, if you have a fool-proof method to show that while other things are allegorical, the most extraordinary and pivotal claims of the Bible (Creation ex nihilo, Noah's Ark, Death and Ascension, raising dead, Virgin Birth) are literal, I'll be ready to reconsider my position.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Just Chris]

Mr.White can you help me understand these 2 passages better. Deuteronomy 22:28- If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 28:29- he shall pay her father fifty shekelsof silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. When I read I think to different things. 1st God allows rape as long as you pay the father of the rape victim and marry her. 2nd it makes me thing God punishes both involved, he punishes the male by making him pay 50 shekels of silver and have him marry the victim and he punishes the woman by making her marry the man who raped her. If this is true that means the rape victim should be punished when she has done no wrong.

[Just Chris]

When I said fair to all I was talking about the laws of man not God's, God's word should be followed to the letter. For example in rape fair to all would me a jail sentence to the man who has raped the woman and for the woman to spears due to her innocence. Also I try myself to be a civil man. I perfer discussion over arguing but I am not perfect and will argue at ti.es because I'm a human and we let out personal opinions, believes,and upbringing cloud out judgement

[Elmer G. White]

Originally Posted by Chris-the-Knuckle-Head

The main reason I believe in innocent until proven guilty is because we all make mistakes. Their are alot of times innocent people are arrested because they were set up, or the jury or judge didn't believe them. Due to this fact we shouldn't be so quick to say this person did or that one did without reviewing all the facts. Normally in this day in age it is very rare for the innocent to receive a guilty verdict due to our advancements in technology but for hundreds of years it was hard because it was impossible to gain as much evidence as we can now. I'm glad that eventually a good bit of those imprisoned falsely are eventually freed due to new evidence.

No-one (i.e., sinners) can be imprisoned falsely in the eyes of Jesus as they are all guilty unless proven innocent.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

If someone has stolen an apple, he's committed all imaginable sins (including underage rape, murder and genocide) in the eyes of God. For Jesus, all trespasses are equally abominable (James 2:10). If the accused has committed any trespasses, he's also guilty of the particular charge against him in the secular court of law. This is the main difference between sinful atheist law and God's Law!

However, if a True Christian™ is in a situation where he is imprisoned, is is possible that he's being falsely accused. This, however, is one kind of persecution that only adds to the prestige of the True Christian™ come Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Matthew 5:12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Elmer G. White]

Originally Posted by Chris-the-Knuckle-Head

Mr.White can you help me understand these 2 passages better. Deuteronomy 22:28- If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 28:29- he shall pay her father fifty shekelsof silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. When I read I think to different things. 1st God allows rape as long as you pay the father of the rape victim and marry her. 2nd it makes me thing God punishes both involved, he punishes the male by making him pay 50 shekels of silver and have him marry the victim and he punishes the woman by making her marry the man who raped her. If this is true that means the rape victim should be punished when she has done no wrong.

1. Of course God thinks that rape is a crime. It is clearly stated in that passage (if you read Deuteronomy 22:29 in its proper KJV form) that rape is something that must be punished. Let us look at it closer:

Deuteronomy 22:29
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

This is, indeed, severe punishment as discussed also HERE on our Forum. Please, show some compassion here! The man will never ever be on parole. He's committed to support the woman he violated for the rest of his life. He'll be reminded of his wrongdoing every single day. A couple of years in prison is a piece of cake compared to this.

2. The woman has her virtue and her economical situation saved. She now has someone to pay the bills, to be the breadwinner. In addition, she has a chance for Salvation!

1 Timothy 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

3. You forgot the potential child that is produced by this crime. If it were born out of wedlock, it would be stained for ten generations (Deuteronomy 23:2). Now it has a heterosexual married couple to raise it, no risk of gay adoption or other abominations.

The man is punished. The woman gets financial security and a potential place in Heaven (isn't Infinity worth more than a few decades on Earth) and the child gets a stable home (as divorce is impossible). How much better would America be and how much better would its children thrive is this were implemented also as the Law of the Land? Jesus did know what He was writing with these Commandments!


Yours in Christ,

Elmer

[Elmer G. White]

Originally Posted by Chris-the-Knuckle-Head

When I said fair to all I was talking about the laws of man not God's, God's word should be followed to the letter. ...

How does this affect your original position if we should follow secular law of God's Commandments? This began when you told us that secular laws take precedent over the Bible.

Acts 5:29
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer