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Default The theology of Martin Luther revisited. - 11-10-2015, 03:17 AM

The historical fortunes of figures changes rather often based on the thinking of the day and depending on whether you worship Jesus or his mommy Mary.

How the Catholics see Luther

For the Catholics, Luther is seen as the man who destroyed Christian hegemony. He is accused of being a murderer, a humanist. That his mother Margaret was a bathhouse attendant who fornicated with the devil.

For most of Renaissance, Industrial and modern eras Christians have seen Martin Luther as the reformer who finally won freedom from the Roman church's thumb of oppression. The reluctant revolutionary who set off a movement that reached from all over Europe, North America, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India and so many other places all across the globe.

Even the movement Martin Luther started has been repudiating some of his teachings. Saying he was a sinner and in error. But why?
Is it because what he preached was heretical and varied from the scriptures we hold dear? Or is it that the Lutherans have moved away from the teachings of the Bible?

Let's go over some of the major points of Luther's theology and then we can decide whether or not we agree with him or not. But first a caveat.

The difficulty in studying Luther






To even attempt to study Martin Luther is an incredibly daunting task. First off, Luther wrote close to 60,000 pages. He wrote throughout his entire lifetime, so many times something you will read will be a younger more idealistic Luther and others will be a hardened old man.

Then, there is that the Catholics have at least as many pages and made up quotes attempting to libel Luther. In this age of the internet, there are entire websites dedicated to twisting Luther's quotes by using them out of context, quoting what his Catholic biographers said about him and attributing them to him.

Further exacerbating the situation, is that there are so called Christians repeating in a game of telephone these libelous Papist dogs' misdirections. There are countless articles of Anabaptist/Pentecostal authorship eager to regurgitate these same so-called quotes.

And then the next group of axe grinders is the Jews. They have a special hatred for Luther as we will shortly see why. The Jews have been very eager to feed their "Stand with Israel" allies a steady diet of FUD with Luther as well.

And to even further confuse the issue, you have satirical atheist websites like jesus-is-savior.com propagating the same Catholic/ Anabaptist Libel. But the joke will be on them some day. Galatians 6:7

To even see whether Martin Luther said something or not takes very serious dedication and patience. I have done my best to fact check these quotes, but I am only a man, so I may not have everything 100% right. And if that's the case, I apologize to God and my fellow Christians. The Catholics, Jews and Penetcostals can all go to hell where they belong.

On The Jews and Their Lies.


Luther later in life came to agree with the Catholics, the Apostle Paul and Jesus that attempting to convert the Jews was a waste of time.
Let their houses also be shattered and destroyed. Let their prayer books and Talmuds be taken from them, and their whole Bible too; let their rabbis be forbidden, on pain of death, to teach henceforth any more. Let the streets and highways be closed against them. Let them be forbidden to practice usury, and let all their money, and all their treasures of silver and gold be taken from them and put away in safety. And if all this be not enough, let them be driven like mad dogs out of the land.




The Catholic Church had the same policy against Jewry with the Inquisition. Some Popes allowed them while the others were in favor of expelling or forcibly converting them.
And Dr. Luther didn't start off as being against the Jews. It was a natural extension of their obstinance that Jesus and Paul both pointed out.
1 Thessalonians: 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
John the Divine calls them "The Synagogue of Satan"
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Many Pastors contend the meaning of the phrase, but a reading of Romans 2 makes it a very plain prooftext.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew,
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Luther naively believed the Jews would convert to Christianity if Christians were just nice to them. Later in his life, he learned the same truths about them that everyone else had. This is 100% in line with our beliefs. The remnant of the so called Jews should be perfected. See also Romans 11:4-5

Luther hated the Anabaptists and wished them exterminated.



Anabaptists

The Anabaptists were a sect of "Christians" that have a few beliefs in common with a independent or primitive Baptist church like this one. The Anabaptists are the precursors to the Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites, the Shakers and the Quakers. They believed that everyone should stand up and speak in church loudly and boisterously. They even allowed women to speak contra to Paul's commands in 2 Tim 2:12 and 1 Cor 14:34. I believe they are the spiritual equivalent of modern Pentecostals, whose deprivations we have documented already. In our church you will not find unscheduled speakers. We believe church should be an orderly event led by ministers ordained by God to tend to Jesus' sheep.

Anabaptists were also staunch pacifists, who would have laid down and allowed the Mohammedans to conquer Christendom. Luther realized the need for strong leadership to fight the constant menace to God's people and the need to stop such dangerous thinking before it begins.
Perhaps the Anabaptists were in league with Satan and the Turks, because they also believed that Christ was merely a human man.

Martin Luther was a staunch believer in secular punishment for the crimes of:


Blasphemy
If some were to teach doctrines contradicting an article of faith clearly grounded in Scripture and believed throughout the world by all Christendom, such as the articles we teach children in the Creed — for example, if anyone were to teach that Christ is not God, but a mere man and like other prophets, as the Turks and the Anabaptists hold — such teachers should not be tolerated, but punished as blasphemer. By this procedure no one is compelled to believe, for he can still believe what he will; but he is forbidden to teach and to blaspheme.
For they are not mere heretics but open blasphemers; and rulers are in duty bound to punish blasphemers as they punish those who curse, swear, revile, abuse, defame, and slander. With their blasphemy such teachers defame the name of God and rob their neighbor of his honor in the eyes of the world. In like manner, the rulers should also punish—or certainly not tolerate—those who teach that Christ did not die for our sins, but that everyone shall make his own satisfaction for them. For that, too, is blasphemy against the Gospel and against the article we pray in the Creed: “I believe in the forgiveness of sins” and “in Jesus Christ, dead and risen.” Those should be treated in the same way who teach that the resurrection of the dead and the life everlasting are nothing, that there is no hell, and like things, as did the Sadducees and the Epicureans, of whom many are now arising among the great wiseacres.




We concur. Blasphemy cursing, swearing should be punished. Speaking a view differently from that of God's as spoken about in the Bible is blasphemy. As we are 100% ground in Scripture, we should rightly be the ones that interpret what is blasphemy and false teaching, much like Luther did.

For Rebellion against God's Ordained Authorities


Luther's response to the German Peasant's War.
Peasants are no better than straw. They will not hear the word and they are without sense; therefore they must be compelled to hear the crack of the whip and the whiz of bullets and it is only what they deserve. If they say that I am very hard and merciless, mercy be damned. Let whoever can stab, strangle, and kill them like mad dogs.

Like the drivers of donkeys, who have to belabor the donkeys incessantly with rods and whips, or they will not obey, so must the ruler do with the people; they must drive, beat throttle, hang, burn, behead and torture, so as to make themselves feared and to keep the people in check.
We conditionally agree with this statement much like Luther must have. Because Paul agreed with this statement in Romans 13:1-6. Surely this is an older Luther writing these words. For him being the rebel must have been long over. He had fought his battle with the Catholic Church and won. He was surely living under a Lutheran prince who upheld God's Word by this time.

But if Luther had been living under, say a Catholic ruler, I know Acts 5:29 would have applied. In much the same way as today if there is a Godly ruler in power or a heathen.

I may at some time do a followup to this article as we are pushing 2,000 words of time consuming research and I have barely scratched the surface of commonalities in our beliefs.

Martin Luther has often been vilified, but upon further historical reflection, could Martin Luther be on the right hand of Jesus?


Christians are superior because we possess an understanding that unbelievers lack. It is through the Power of Jesus only the converted mind is able to understand what is going on in the world; what the Communists are really up to; what Satan's intentions are. Most unbelievers do not even believe in Satan and cannot understand his tactics.



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Bible Re: The theology of Martin Luther revisited. - 11-10-2015, 04:45 AM

An excellent introduction into Luther's thought that is a jungle of verbose texts of very varying quality. I sometimes think of him as the James Joyce of theology with a stream of consciousness spanning several decades. You brought up some very interesting and important points regarding Joos and Anabaptists. If I may, I'd like to add some of my own musings.

We all know the hazards of Lutheranism: infant baptism, transubstantiation, constant manic new translations of the KJV Bible into foreign languages. I think we also need to think of Luther himself as a man. He was - as you mentioned - a prolific writer. He was, in fact, one of the first to utilize effectively the social media of his day, the printed book. If he had a dispute with Zwingli or the papists, he would go to the Frankfurt Book Fair and publish a pamphlet. But - similar to the less Godly branches of the Interwebs in the present day - he didn't really have the time to polish and think about his writings. Ergo, some of them were just emotional tantrums written on the spot and published in the express press of the time in a few months to be on the top of discussion. Quality was inevitable the one thing that suffered.

Personal merit was, thus, important for him. Is there a way to discern these hastily stitched pamphlets from serious theological discussion? At least the Lutheran "Churches" of our day do not seem to think so. For instance, the Catechism was done urgently as much for political as for Spiritual reasons, still, the Lutherans revere it as if it were actually the Word of God in condensed format.

The result: Luther (as well as commentators that came after him) requires about 100 lines of text to interpret a single-line verse of the Bible. Can it REALLY be that difficult? Is it really feasible that Jesus authored His Magnum Opus in a way that would make it impossible to understand it without "interpretations" longer by two orders of magnitude than the original text? THIS is the question that the scholars on Luther never seem to discuss. I have here some examples of Luther's method.

1. He dismissed some parts of the Bible.
Quote:
Preface to the Revelation of St. John (1522)

About this book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic.
First and foremost, the apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in clear and plain words, as do Peter and Paul, and Christ in the gospel. For it befits the apostolic office to speak clearly of Christ and his deeds, without images and visions. Moreover there is no prophet in the Old Testament, to say nothing of the New, who deals so exclusively with visions and images. For myself, I think it approximates the Fourth Book of Esdras; 8 I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.
Thus, based on his PERSONAL PREFERENCES, Luther dismissed Revelations. This means no more smiting of one third of sinning men (Revelation 9:15), no more God wiping off our tears (Revelation 7:17), no more New Heaven, no more New Earth (Revelation 21:1). No more sea, as well, but that one I can accept (Revelation 21:1). In addition, He contradicts Jesus who does not accept additions or removals:

Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


And, as expected, Luther had many ailments and illnesses (=plagues) during his twilight years.


This is Luther's death mask.

2. Luther on Galatians

Luther's commentary on Galatians is the prime example of losing the sight of proportions. The commentary is 800-900 pages long. Please, Brethren, compare it to your own copy of the KJV. Interposed within this verbose prose there are pearls of wisdom, when Luther actually lets go of his manic typing and looks at the actual verses. Let us look at the last verses of Galatians 3:

Quote:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
The list might be extended indefinitely: There is neither preacher nor hearer, neither teacher nor scholar, neither master nor servant, etc. In the matter of salvation, rank, learning, righteousness, influence count for nothing.... [some verbose stuff here]

...Whether a servant performs his duties well; whether those who are in authority govern wisely; whether a man marries, provides for his family, and is an honest citizen; whether a woman is chaste, obedient to her husband, and a good mother: all these advantages do not qualify a person for salvation. These virtues are commendable, of course; but they do not count points for justification. All the best laws, ceremonies, religions, and deeds of the world cannot take away sin guilt, cannot dispatch death, cannot purchase life.

There is much disparity among men in the world, but there is no such disparity before God. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23.) Let the Jews, let the Greeks, let the whole world keep silent in the presence of God. Those who are justified are justified by Christ. Without faith in Christ the Jew with his laws, the monk with his holy orders, the Greek with his wisdom, the servant with his obedience, shall perish forever.
This is very important. False Christians and secular people refer to charities and niceties when discussing their "Salvation". God does not care. Saving a child from the Holocaust is commendable but irrelevant if the person doing the saving is a Jew or an atheist or a Zoroastrian etc. The eternal life in God makes these few years of anguish irrelevant. God does not take heroics into account when assessing the soul of a person. Only blind (sic!) belief in Jesus can save you (John 3:16-18). Luther also avoids here the false Christian idea of this verse being about equality of sexes in secular life. He understands that the Bible is about Spirituality, not mundane life.

Do these gems save the message of Luther? In my honest opinion, they do not. They are hidden from the sight between the rambling prose of far-fetched cross-referencing and personal vendettas. In addition, his commentaries to Galatians have produced a veritable déluge of academic literature, where each one of his sentences is explained with 100 sentences of a dissertation. The original one line in the Epistle is suddenly turned into 100* 100 = 10,000 lines. Please, Brethren, multiply this this the number of scholars, which is in the thousands. The Word of God is drowned and hidden as if it were shameful!

3. His translation into German and the Question of Sodomy

Let us look at the True™ Word of God regarding sodomites:

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


Now let us look at Luther's translation.
Quote:
WJsset jr nicht / Das die vngerechten werden das reich Gottes nicht ererben? Lasset euch nicht verfüren / Weder die Hurer / noch die Abgöttischen / noch die Ehebrecher / noch die Weichlingen / noch die Knabenschender /
Luther does not refer to sodomites but to pedophiles. I understand his motivation and it is commendable: to fight the Catholic altar boy abuse menace that must have existed also during the heyday of Luther's working life. But it is a grievous error. Not only does the original Bible (the KJV) refer to "mankind" - adult men - so does the Greek translation with ἀρσενοκοῖται. Had this been a referral to "boys", Jesus would have been able to write that in plain American! This has opened up the possibility of false Christians talking about "responsible sodomy" by stating that the Bible would comdemn only fornication between adut and pre-adolescent males.

A confusing fellow, this Luther. I do not think his occasional wisdom would have helped him gain prestige in the eyes of Jesus. In addition, does his dismissal of Revelations as transmitted by the Holy Spirit count as blasphemy against this third manifestation of the Trinity (Matthew 12:31)? I think it does but rarely I have also erred. It remains a mystery if Jesus saw him fit to join him in Heaven. However, this would have required a total and deep Repentance during the last breaths of Luther's life. It is not impossible. Jesus is the master of miracles that contradict everyday experience and rationality. He might have convinced Luther to accept Him in the end.



Yours in Christ,

Elmer


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Default Re: The theology of Martin Luther revisited. - 11-10-2015, 05:13 AM

Shout Glory!!!

Martin Luther was NOT a Christian.


Who Will Jesus Damn?

Here is a partial list from just a few scripture verses:

Hypocrites (Matthew 24:51), The Unforgiving (Mark 11:26), Homosexuals (Romans 1:26, 27), Fornicators (Romans 1:29), The Wicked (Romans 1:29), The Covetous (Romans 1:29), The Malicious (Romans 1:29), The Envious (Romans 1:29), Murderers (Romans 1:29), The Deceitful (Romans 1:29), Backbiters (Romans 1:30), Haters of God (Romans 1:30), The Despiteful (Romans 1:30), The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30), Inventors of evil (Romans 1:30), Disobedient to parents (Romans 1:30), Covenant breakers (Romans 1:31), The Unmerciful (Romans 1:31), The Implacable (Romans 1:31), The Unrighteous (1Corinthians 6:9), Idolaters (1Corinthians 6:9), Adulterers (1Corinthians 6:9), The Effeminate (1Corinthians 6:9), Thieves (1Corinthians 6:10), Drunkards (1Corinthians 6:10), Reviler (1Corinthians 6:10), Extortioners (1Corinthians 6:10), The Fearful (Revelation 21:8), The Unbelieving (Revelation 21:8), The Abominable (Revelation 21:8), Whoremongers (Revelation 21:8), Sorcerers (Revelation 21:8), All Liars (Revelation 21:8)

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Default Re: The theology of Martin Luther revisited. - 05-11-2018, 01:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Ezekiel View Post
Shout Glory!!!

Martin Luther was NOT a Christian.
Didn't he include the demonic apocrypha in "translation" of those scriptures he proclaimed? With a few caveats maybe, but there they were.

What is this "apocrypha" and how, exactly, are they blasphemous?

Martin Luther (heretic) had no reason to acknowledge God even though he correctly identified the pope du jour as a demonic instrument. In the following excerpt any differences between the authentic priesthood of God at the time of Daniel and the bogus priesthoods of demons which remain current among bogus priesthoods everywhere, Rome, Uppsala, Canterbury, are in high relief. This is a papist source. Obviously no Christian would ever use it. Nevertheless it shows the difference between Truth and falsehood. Falsehood includes demonic hallucination.

Quote:
DANIEL, BEL AND THE DRAGON

When King Astyages joined his ancestors, Cyrus of Persia succeeded him. Daniel was very close to the king who thought more of him than of any other of his friends. Now in Babylon there was an idol called Bel, to which twelve bushels of the finest flour, forty sheep and six measures of wine were offered every day. The king took part in this cult and used to go and worship the idol every day. Daniel, however, worshipped his own God. 'Why do you not worship Bel?' the king asked Daniel. 'I do not worship idols made by the hands of men,' Daniel replied 'I worship the living God who made heaven and earth and who has power over all living creatures.' 'You believe, then,' said the king 'that Bel is not a living god? Can you not see how much he eats and drinks every day?' Daniel laughed. 'My king,' he said 'do not be taken in; he is clay inside, and bronze outside, and has never eaten or drunk anything.' This made the king angry; he summoned his priests, 'Tell me who eats all this food,' he said 'or die. Prove to me that Bel really eats it, and I will have Daniel put to death for blaspheming him.' Daniel said to the king, 'Let it be as you say.' There were seventy of these priests, to say nothing of their wives and children. The king went to the temple of Bel, taking Daniel with him. The priests of Bel said to him, 'We are now withdrawing, as you can see; but we will leave you, O king, to set out food and prepare the wine and leave it there. Then you can shut the door and seal it with your own seal. If, when you return in the morning, you do not find that everything has been eaten by Bel, then let us be put to death; if not, then Daniel, that slanderer!' They were thinking-hence their confidence-of a secret entrance which they had made under the table, by which they came in daily and took the offerings away. When the priests had gone and the king had set out the food for Bel, Daniel made his servants bring ashes and spread them all over the temple floor, with no other witness than the king. Then they left the building, shut the door and, sealing it with the king's seal, went away. That night, as usual, the priests came with their wives and children; they ate and drank everything. The king was up very early next morning; so was Daniel. 'Daniel,' said the king 'are the seals intact?' 'They are intact, O king' he replied. The king then opened the door and taking one look at the table he exclaimed, 'You are great, O Bel! There is no deception in you!' But Daniel laughed. And restraining the king from going further in, he said, 'Look at the floor and examine these footprints.' 'I can see footprints of men, of women and of children' said the king, and angrily ordered the priests to be arrested, with their wives and children. They showed him then the secret door through which they used to come and remove what was on the table. The king had them put to death and handed Bel over to Daniel who destroyed both the idol and its temple. There was a big dragon in Babylon, and this was worshipped too.

HONESTLY, THEY JUST MAKE IT UP AS THEY GO ALONG

The king said to Daniel, 'You are not going to tell me that this is no more than bronze? Look, it is alive; it eats and drinks; you cannot deny that this is a living god; worship it, then.' Daniel replied, 'I worship the Lord my God; he is the living God. With your permission, O king, without using either sword or club I will kill this serpent.' 'You have my permission' said the king. Whereupon Daniel took some pitch, some fat and some hair and boiled them up together, rolled the mixture into balls and fed them to the dragon; the dragon swallowed them and burst. Daniel said, 'Now look at the sort of thing you worship!' The Babylonians were furious when they heard about this and began intriguing against the king. 'The king has turned Jew,' they said 'he has allowed Bel to be overthrown, and the dragon to be killed, and he has put the priests to death.' So they went to the king and said, 'Hand Daniel over to us or else we will kill you, and your family.' They pressed him so hard that the king found himself forced to hand Daniel over to them.


The ruse was discovered, not even tobacco ash strewn across the floor was needed. Would any Christian feed on the choicest delicacies while millions starved? Plonk themselves down on satin pillows for a debauch or live in palaces beyond compare? They would not. How does Luther stack up here?
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Liar
Heretic
Christ denier
Idolator
Murderer
Replies in brief with references and Scripture and details of numbers murdered, where necessary. And out there in Real Life, challenge them to their face. Behind the mask they condemned you to torture for centuries. Tell them. Ask them why they still believe.

If they did not accept the doctrine they would repudiate the Lutheranism. They have not. Remind them: now is where you give your reasons.
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Rebuke Re: The theology of Martin Luther revisited. - 05-11-2018, 05:43 PM

He clearly remained a Catholic, so he was not of God.


Ecclesiastes 5:3b "A fool's voice is known by multitude of words."
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Default Re: The theology of Martin Luther revisited. - 05-11-2018, 06:00 PM

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Originally Posted by Diesel Stanford View Post
He clearly remained a Catholic, so he was not of God.
Hello Mr. Stanford. You have expressed an interesting opinion - one that every single Catholic would disagree with you about. Would you care to explain?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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Default Re: The theology of Martin Luther revisited. - 05-12-2018, 11:23 AM

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Originally Posted by Dolores de Barriga View Post
Hello Mr. Stanford. You have expressed an interesting opinion - one that every single Catholic would disagree with you about. Would you care to explain?
Thank you for replying. Luther started off a Roman Catholic. But had he launched from the Ukrainian Orthodox, or even from the Zen, any belief system in his head would retain its origins. His protest would be seeking correct implementation of that faith, whatever it was.

In the event Luther sought "correct implementation" of catholicism. It was the Romish element he rejected, not because it contradicted God but because it contradicted his own understanding of what catholicism should be. Have you ever seen a Lutheran altar?

Hideously blasphemous are not words I like to use but they do have a meaning and sometimes are appropriate. Did Luther read The Bible and appreciate how absolutely inverted in every aspect his system of belief, the dogma he'd been indoctrinated with, the popes he adored and every catholic practice had become? No. If he had been he would have addressed the most fundamental, the most frequently reiterated, the most roundly condemned abomination of all. Idolatry. Next he could have done something about "indulgences" whereby cash was generated for Not-Martin-Luther which, although a pretty rotten deception, never got whole nations wiped out down to the cutest baby or tiny purring cat. Here is a link to Pastor Enoe's synopsis:


Priests who stole, as all papists steal from their congregations using lies and manipulation I will not go so far as to say gaslighting, were punished sometimes even as a group but simple covetousness (which might have led to doctrinal grey areas) earned despisement and scorn. If they did so at a midnight mass, for example, the punishment would include death but not for the whole congregation together with their children livestock and wives. Idol obsessions on the other hand repeatedly brought down extermination for even making one, let alone setting up 100 foot solid gold gargoyles for aphrodisiac orgies as I imagine to have been commonplace prior to utter annihilation commanded by God. No, Luther seems to have missed that bit. Here's a couple of lutheran altars:


Are you familiar with these horrors?
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Default Re: The theology of Martin Luther revisited. - 05-15-2018, 10:05 PM

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Originally Posted by MitzaLizalor View Post
Thank you for replying. Luther started off a Roman Catholic. But had he launched from the Ukrainian Orthodox, or even from the Zen, any belief system in his head would retain its origins. His protest would be seeking correct implementation of that faith, whatever it was.

In the event Luther sought "correct implementation" of catholicism. It was the Romish element he rejected, not because it contradicted God but because it contradicted his own understanding of what catholicism should be. Have you ever seen a Lutheran altar?

Hideously blasphemous are not words I like to use but they do have a meaning and sometimes are appropriate.
You make a series of great points, Miss Mitza. I understand that from the Baptist perspective Lutherans are closer to the original Catholic root than the other Protestant denominations.


Notwithstanding, Luther did break away from the Mother Church, and he did not remain a Catholic, as seen by the fact that he broke his and his wife chastity vows, and broke away from the Catholic hierarchy, and thus did not remain Catholic - even though his faith retained many Catholic elements.


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Default Re: The theology of Martin Luther revisited. - 05-16-2018, 01:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Dolores de Barriga View Post
You make a series of great points, Miss Mitza. I understand that from the Baptist perspective Lutherans are closer to the original Catholic root than the other Protestant denominations.


Notwithstanding, Luther did break away from the Mother Church, and he did not remain a Catholic, as seen by the fact that he broke his and his wife chastity vows, and broke away from the Catholic hierarchy, and thus did not remain Catholic - even though his faith retained many Catholic elements.
My understanding was that, from Luther's perspective, it was mother who had broken away by introducing chastity where it had not existed before?

Papists may say to their hearts' content that married priests (who had been ordained following their conversion as married men or some such) thenceforth abstained from congress or that in olden days they'd dump their wives prior to taking holy orders. Except some minor orders probably. It's a yawn a minute. None of it applies to any other than Romish orders as is clear from the inclusion of married priests in the Orthodox tradition. Just because the "Roman Orthodox" false church sloughed off from the all the other Orthodox false churches and now demand celibacy in contravention of God's Commandments and the criterion for leaders to be married to one wife set out in The New Testament does not mean they ever had a monopoly on reproductive theology for clerics.

Again from Luther's point of view, since he probably thought catholicism had some connection with Jesus, their obsession was the departure. He was returning to, not absconding from. I cannot see how catholicism has any connection with Jesus at all.

Since catholicism requires celibacy of priests, for whom there are no Biblical raisons d'être whatsoever, they would claim that given the function of marriage and the grounds for annulment in some cases (such as non-consummation) no priest could marry validly. Christianity, on the other hand, teaches that there is no function for any intermediary. Whether or not one was ever a Jew [with access to God through priests] or a Gentile [with no access to God] became irrelevant once Jesus united us in The Holy Spirit with full and equal access requiring no priests at all. Catholicism either missed out on this bit or never had anything to do with it in the first place. Neither, therefore, did Lutheranism. But maybe Luther thought he was returning to some original Christianity. He wasn't. He was returning to some earlier homogenised paganism where priests and idols were front and centre. God explains:
Ephesians 2:12-18 At that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
The episcopal or presbytery leaders, whatever they are called, are not in any sense priests. There is no such thing as a Christian priest. If it's a priest it's not a Christian. Lutherans and Romish catholics (and orthodoxes) have priests. Therefore they are not Christian. Whether their schisms have produced celibate priesthoods as an aberration or whether the Roman contingent were a celibate caste within their wholly pagan origins is a moot point. I really couldn't care less. If they followed The Bible they would know that.

One question of minor interest, as opposed to no interest, would be what exactly they are following!
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