[Pastor Ezekiel]

Originally Posted by B.Akash

The Bible is often considered irrational and called " A book of fairy tales" often by unbelievers.
But the Bible is supported by history as well as reason. Many people who haven't even read it call it names, and falsely accuse it of teaching wrong things like racism, killing, etc. But nowhere does it say such things. It teaches Love, forgiveness, and hope. The acts committed by people in the past in the name of religion is probably the reason of such outbursts. But those things has nothing to do with Christianity. All they show is how vulnerable man is that the moment we turn away our eyes from God to the things of the world, temptations to sin bombard the imagination and we succumb to it. May God the people of this world the truth and people realize the truth. May God use me and other people so that we may gently and boldly spread the gospel.

Please make a thread of your own in the "Introductions" section of the forum, so that we can properly greet you. Tell us about yourself, your church, and how you came to find Jesus.

And if you're here to flame us, better take a look at THIS before making an even bigger ass out of yourself.

I will pray that the Holy Spirit enter you and chase the demons out of your rectum and let Jesus fill you with His Grace. If you use your God-given free will to reject Christ and His temporary death on the cross for my sins, then you are sending yourself to hellfire.

[Irrational Loser]

The fundamental problem with your position is that it requires a fallible human to discern that the Bible is true. Consider:

A human is presented with three tomes: the Koran, the Bible and the Book of Mormon. And let's assume that all three at some point make assertions that the tome itself is the infalliible word of God, presenting the same circular argument that you yourself have proudly presented. It is up to the human to discern which to believe. And, once we open the door for humans to discern, then it is also fair for the human to discern that none of the three are true and for that to be equally valid.

Phillipians 2:12 implores us all to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling." If man has no basis upon which to discern for himself what is right and wrong in the process of working out his salvation, what is there to work out? In this case it should read, "Do exactly what I said and don't think for yourself"

Therefore, your infallible Bible seems to point out that in fact that our own human reasoning is important and is in contradiction to your fundamental presupposition.

You see, the mere assertion that the Bible is the infallible word of God does not make it true any more than similar assertions in other religious books. And, any rationale or position that you use to discredit those other books and the subsequent religions can easily be used to discredit yours.

[John Creeser]

Originally Posted by RationalWinner

The fundamental problem with your position is that it requires a fallible human to discern that the Bible is true. Consider:

A human is presented with three tomes: the Koran, the Bible and the Book of Mormon. And let's assume that all three at some point make assertions that the tome itself is the infalliible word of God, presenting the same circular argument that you yourself have proudly presented. It is up to the human to discern which to believe. And, once we open the door for humans to discern, then it is also fair for the human to discern that none of the three are true and for that to be equally valid.

Phillipians 2:12 implores us all to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling." If man has no basis upon which to discern for himself what is right and wrong in the process of working out his salvation, what is there to work out? In this case it should read, "Do exactly what I said and don't think for yourself"

Therefore, your infallible Bible seems to point out that in fact that our own human reasoning is important and is in contradiction to your fundamental presupposition.

You see, the mere assertion that the Bible is the infallible word of God does not make it true any more than similar assertions in other religious books. And, any rationale or position that you use to discredit those other books and the subsequent religions can easily be used to discredit yours.

Yes, yes we have heard this all before. Let me clear this up for you;

2nd Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Habakkuk 2:2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

Now before you go throwing around big words again, would you do us the courtesy of introducing yourself in the "Introductions" area of the forum.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Originally Posted by RationalWinner

You see, the mere assertion that the Bible is the infallible word of God does not make it true

However, it does not make it untrue either, and you know that. So you personally can make no assertion as to its being wrong. On the other hand, I, who have studied the Bible, know that it is a small work of heavenly art, and surely that, even for you without faith, is a pointer to the truth, is it not?

I dare say that you could use your "argument" about various theories and claims made by science so-called, but you are happy with that and believe whatever they say, regardless of the fact that it is in constant flux. You must sometimes worry that these scientists are going from New York to Boston via Nome, I know I do. The journey to the truth is far shorter, as those scientists will eventually discover: it lies within God’s Word.

[Cranky Old Man]

Originally Posted by Irrational Loser

presupposition

Making up words doesn't hide the fact that you're completely wrong.

[Irrational Loser]

Wow. What a welcome I've had to the forum. I've been "cited" by Pastor Ezekiel for the offense of "going yappity yap yap yappity", had my profile name changed to Irrational Loser, and told I'm making up the word "presupposition" which can be looked up in any dictionary, AND is just an extension of the very same word Pim Pendergast used when he started this thread in 2013.

So Cranky Old man - Get a dictionary. Presuppose and presupposition are in fact words in the English language and your ignorance of that fact doesn't make it less true.

John Creeser - I appreciate your attempt to explain things to me. I view it as an honest attempt coming from a sincere place. If you adopt the paradigm that the Bible is truly the word of God, then your assertions make sense. But citing verses from the Bible still requires that we, fallible humans, make the determination that the Bible is truly the infallible word of God. It may in fact be, but we have know rational way of actually knowing that.

Ezekiel Bathfire - similarly, I appreciate the mature tone in your response. You are correct, merely making the assertion that the Bible is the infallible word of God neither makes it true or untrue. How then, do we humans make that evaluation that the Bible is true? How is it that I or you or anyone can determine that it's any more true than the Koran or the Book of Mormon, all of which make similar claims? What you require is an act of "Faith", which is essentially choosing to believe in something/someone without necessarily having adequate rationale to do so.

If I see a chair, I can assume that chair is a good place to sit. I have thousands of examples of siting in chairs that suggest that its safe to do so. Ergo the evidence supports it and it is logically correct for me to assume that. My struggle is with the seemingly irrational leap that a non-believer would have to make from non-belief to belief.

The Mormons solve this by saying more or less that you'll just know, setting the expectation for a numinous experience (also a real word Cranky Old Man).

You see, I have tried. I was raised in a Christian home and the child of a pastor. I've spent my ENTIRE LIFE trying to come to a place where I can have full faith. I have prayed many hours, begging for God to send his spirit into my heart. I have attended, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, and Pentecostal churches. I have made that walk up to the front of the church with tears in my eyes, begging to feel God's love envelope me. I went to Sunday School before service, the worship service, the evening worship service, prayer meetings, bible studies and choir practices. I went to private Christian Schools much of my life. But deep down inside I have never been able to make the leap, even though I have wanted it more than anything ever. I look around with envy at those who seem to have found meaning in their faith. The very fact that I am on your forum was because I was debating with an atheist on why I want to believe.

The meanness of your reception not withstanding, that desire still remains. But I will not lie to myself and pretend to find meaning where something seems meaningless. If there is a God, then he has blessed us with free will and the ability to discern for ourselves what is right, wrong, true or false. The ability to choose is fundamental to Christian faith. A person must, on his or her own free will, choose to believe in Christ to received forgiveness. But, God MADE us fallible and it would be completely irrational for him to then punish us for being fallible and making the wrong choice while using the only tool he has given us - our intellect.

Finally, your forum promised honest, intellectual, conversation. I came to you respectfully in search for honest dialogue to help me in my journey, and I was treated poorly. If heaven is populated with the mean spirited people that populate populate some of this forum like Pastor Ezekiel (changing my name to Irrational Loser) and other so called Christians, I'd rather take my chances in hell. I'm fairly certain Jesus would not have changed by screen name. He was know for love and for kindness.


I challenge you to tell me how mocking me demonstrates Christ's love.

[Irrational Loser]

... and sorry for the typos.

[Mary Etheldreda]

Originally Posted by Irrational Loser

I challenge you to tell me how mocking me demonstrates Christ's love.

You're confused. This forum doesn't function to make and accept challenges. When you registered on this forum, you agreed to the fact you would be joining the chorus of Brothers and Sisters in Christ singing the praises of Jesus, and sharing the Good News that He is going to send every single person on Earth who doesn’t believe in Him straight to Hell.

Hallelujah! Praise the LORD!

Now, stop trying to pick a fight, and start praising Jesus!

[Basilissa]

Originally Posted by Irrational Loser

You see, I have tried. I was raised in a Christian home and the child of a pastor. I've spent my ENTIRE LIFE trying to come to a place where I can have full faith. I have prayed many hours, begging for God to send his spirit into my heart. I have attended, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, and Pentecostal churches. I have made that walk up to the front of the church with tears in my eyes, begging to feel God's love envelope me. I went to Sunday School before service, the worship service, the evening worship service, prayer meetings, bible studies and choir practices. I went to private Christian Schools much of my life. But deep down inside I have never been able to make the leap, even though I have wanted it more than anything ever. I look around with envy at those who seem to have found meaning in their faith. The very fact that I am on your forum was because I was debating with an atheist on why I want to believe.

The meanness of your reception not withstanding, that desire still remains. But I will not lie to myself and pretend to find meaning where something seems meaningless. If there is a God, then he has blessed us with free will and the ability to discern for ourselves what is right, wrong, true or false. The ability to choose is fundamental to Christian faith. A person must, on his or her own free will, choose to believe in Christ to received forgiveness. But, God MADE us fallible and it would be completely irrational for him to then punish us for being fallible and making the wrong choice while using the only tool he has given us - our intellect.

My dear, I appreciate your will to believe in God. I will pray that He will take away that delusion that He Himself has put before your eyes:

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness

You are mistaken, though, in thinking that God will not punish us for doing the wrong choice. As Jesus Himself said:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

After all, our Mighty God seems to enjoy sending most of the humanity to Hell - when you think about all of the people who died before even having the chance to hear about Jesus and believe in Him (that obviously includes millions of babies who died in their infancy).

In fact, God sends entire populations to Hell, just by giving them false laws to follow:

Ezekiel 20:25-26
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
26 And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.

I hope that was helful, dear. I will pray for you.

[Irrational Loser]

Originally Posted by Mary Etheldreda

You're confused. This forum doesn't function to make and accept challenges.

You're right, I'm confused. Because according to According to 1 Timothy 2:11-12,

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

So yeah, can you help me understand why you are talking right now? You should read the thread in silence and basically STHU, woman. Understand that it's nothing personal... just business. It's hard enough keeping track of all of the men and what they are saying and a woman's voice is just added noise.

[Basilissa]

Originally Posted by Irrational Loser

You're right, I'm confused. Because according to According to 1 Timothy 2:11-12,

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

So yeah, can you help me understand why you are talking right now? You should read the thread in silence and basically STHU, woman. Understand that it's nothing personal... just business. It's hard enough keeping track of all of the men and what they are saying and a woman's voice is just added noise.

Hi sweetie, neither Sister Mary nor me are trying to usurp authority over anybody (how do we know that you really are a man, btw?), we are just trying to gently point you in the right direction. If you - somehow - feel threatened by us or forced to do something you don't want to do, there should be a little "X" symbol in the upper right corner of your browser. Feel free to us it.

[John Creeser]

Originally Posted by Irrational Loser

You're right, I'm confused. Because according to According to 1 Timothy 2:11-12,

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

So yeah, can you help me understand why you are talking right now? You should read the thread in silence and basically STHU, woman. Understand that it's nothing personal... just business. It's hard enough keeping track of all of the men and what they are saying and a woman's voice is just added noise.

Watch your tone when addressing your betters, especially Sister Mary one of the most Truest Christians™ since God made the world just over 6000 years ago. She is aware of the scriptures and follows them accordingly (not once have I ever heard her talk in church....EVER 1st Corinthians 14:34 ). You, however, are not a True Christian™, so it doesn't apply.

Look, we take this very seriously (just ask Pastor Ezekiel about his wifes hand Deuteronomy 25:11-12 ) . Despite this meanness you say you are enduring, think about the meanness we encounter on a daily basis. Apparently with these new laws, my wife has to bake cakes for the sodomites or be thrown in jail.

[Ezekiel Bathfire]

Originally Posted by Irrational Loser

Ezekiel Bathfire - similarly, I appreciate the mature tone in your response. You are correct, merely making the assertion that the Bible is the infallible word of God neither makes it true or untrue. How then, do we humans make that evaluation that the Bible is true? How is it that I or you or anyone can determine that it's any more true than the Koran or the Book of Mormon, all of which make similar claims?

Which came first? The Bible, the Koran or the Book of Mormon:
A: The Bible
B: The Koran or
C: the Book of Mormon

Answer = A

If I see a chair, I can assume that chair is a good place to sit. I have thousands of examples of siting in chairs that suggest that its safe to do so. Ergo the evidence supports it and it is logically correct for me to assume that. My struggle is with the seemingly irrational leap that a non-believer would have to make from non-belief to belief.

Your lack of critical thinking starts with failing to describe a chair. I may sit quite comfortably on a rock or a branch - are rocks and branches chairs?

Who described the first chair? What is the essence of a chair?

We have the Bible as the original definition of God's Word - this much you have agreed above.

Do you see my point?

[a lot of text deleted as it did not seem to be progressing the OP towards Jesus.]

I challenge you to tell me how mocking me demonstrates Christ's love.

We are rebuking, not mocking. We are attempting to have you see the folly of your ways. If you do things properly and accept Jesus into your heart, your soul will find eternal bliss - is that a good enough reason?

[Cranky Old Man]

Originally Posted by Irrational Loser

Get a dictionary

Originally Posted by Irrational Loser

sorry for the typos