[Basilissa]

Originally Posted by TrevorL

I am not sure if Alan would endorse your explanation. How will the nations survive and beat their swords into plough-shares if they and the earth is destroyed by fire, Isaiah 2:1-4?

I don't see any contradiction between Isaiah 2:4, Revelation 21:1, and 2 Peter 3:10. Do you really think that God cannot destroy the entire earth (with fire) while keeping people and their spears and swords intact? Aren't you forgetting that God created the laws of physics and thus doesn't have to obey them?

[Mary Etheldreda]

Originally Posted by TrevorL

Congratulations on your progress from “Unsaved Trash – Under Investigation” (when you first posted on this thread) to “Forum Member”. It seems from the quality of your two Posts that you deserve this recognition, reflecting the quality and standards of this forum. I am not sure that you are older, as my avatar is an Identity Fraud placed there by someone with Administrative Ability. I am older and uglier than the avatar. I find the rest of your Post rude, abusive and incoherent, unfitting for a person of your age. It is too cold to live in Antarctica.

Grandma may be a barren, old lady, but she is still a member of this esteemed forum, and you will show members respect if you wish to maintain your posting privileges.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Basilissa and Alan,

Originally Posted by Basilissa

I don't see any contradiction between Isaiah 2:4, Revelation 21:1, and 2 Peter 3:10. Do you really think that God cannot destroy the entire earth (with fire) while keeping people and their spears and swords intact? Aren't you forgetting that God created the laws of physics and thus doesn't have to obey them?

The problem with such a view is that there are many OT prophecies that describe the events of the Latter Days that indicate a period of transition from the present to the Kingdom of God. Zechariah 14 is an example where nations fight against Jerusalem and then Jesus intervenes and establishes the Kingdom. Ezekiel 36-39 also is parallel to these events and speaks of the return of the Jews to the land before a northern invasion and with a similar outcome, the establishment of the Kingdom of God.

Now Alan stated the following, and in support quoted 1 Corinthians 15:21-25:

Originally Posted by Alan Swallows

Jesus won't begin to rule when He returns. When He returns He will hand over the kingdom He has already been ruling to the Father.

First Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
First Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
First Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
First Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
First Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

But Alan stopped short of quoting the next verse:
1 Corinthians 15:26 (KJV): The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
But this did not suit Alan’s overall view, or perhaps he chooses to ignore the fact that Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 65 speak of the Kingdom of God, and teaches that there will be sin during the 1000 years, and there will be death.

Isaiah 65:17-20 (KJV): 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Zechariah 14:16-17 (KJV): 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

And notice the language of Isaiah, “I create new heavens and a new earth”. This is not speaking of a literal destruction of the earth and heaven, but a replacing the present kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God. It is figurative language. Similarly burning up the earth, is figurative representing the destruction of the things of this era, and the establishing of what will endure the fire. The figure is based on the Altar of Burnt Offering.

Originally Posted by Alan Swallows

Wrong again! Jesus has been sitting on David's throne ever since He rose from the dead.

You then quote Acts 2:29-35, but these verses also speak concerning David:
Acts 2:29 (KJV): Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:34 (KJV): For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Seeing that you are in the funeral business, could I ask if you comfort the relatives by saying that the dear departed are now seated with Jesus in glory? In the light of Acts 2:29,34 where is David now?

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

[Alan Swallows Waiting for Email Confirmation]

Originally Posted by TrevorL

Now Alan stated the following, and in support quoted 1 Corinthians 15:21-25:
But Alan stopped short of quoting the next verse:
1 Corinthians 15:26 (KJV): The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
But this did not suit Alan’s overall view, or perhaps he chooses to ignore the fact that Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 65 speak of the Kingdom of God, and teaches that there will be sin during the 1000 years, and there will be death.

My view on the matter is as consistent as God's word on the matter. Death will be destroyed when we receive our glorified bodies.

First Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
First Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
First Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Jesus will reign until death is defeated. Then He will hand the Kingdom over to His Father.

First Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
First Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
First Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

He can only reign until then if He is reigning now. Hebrews tells us He has been reigning since He purged our sins.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high...
Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

This is completely consistent with Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

After defeating death soundly, Jesus will hand the kingdom over to His Father and then take it back again to reign for a thousand years, after which He will give death a second thrashing, casting it into the lake of fire. So there will be two reigns of Christ (from His ascension to His return and from His return for 1,000 years) and two resurrections. Not to mention He has to destroy the earth by fire somewhere in there. I won't pretend to know how it will all work. I'll take it on faith. I think we'll find out soon enough.

So why didn't Paul mention a second resurrection and a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth? Isn't God's word the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? It certainly is (John 17:17). But sometimes the Bible tells the truth by omission. In the Gospels, for instance, we sometimes find details left out of accounts describing the same event. I think Paul would have been pretty confident his audience would live long enough for John to write Revelation and fill them in on everything else they needed to know. The writing of the Bible was a team effort. There was no need for any one man to try to be a hero and write down every single detail himself.

And notice the language of Isaiah, “I create new heavens and a new earth”. This is not speaking of a literal destruction of the earth and heaven, but a replacing the present kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God. It is figurative language. Similarly burning up the earth, is figurative representing the destruction of the things of this era, and the establishing of what will endure the fire.

Figurative? So you think the Bible doesn't really mean what it says! Peter compares the destruction of the earth with fire to the destruction of the earth with water during the great flood, which we all know was an actual historical event.

First Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
First Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
First Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
First Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
First Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
First Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Would you have us believe God drowned all the men and women and children in the world with figurative water? That He had Noah build an ark to save himself and his family and the animals from figurative water? Do you think those shut out of the ark would have said, "Head for the hills! The figurative water is rising fast!"

The figure is based on the Altar of Burnt Offering.

I suppose you think the priests burned the carcasses with figurative fire.

Seeing that you are in the funeral business, could I ask if you comfort the relatives by saying that the dear departed are now seated with Jesus in glory?

That depends whether the deceased was a Christian. I have no problem telling the family of an unsaved person their loved one is in torment and would give anything for them not to make the same mistake they did (Luke 16:19-31). However, I comfort Christian families with the knowledge that their loved one is with the Lord and rebuke them if think they are grieving too hard (First Thessalonians 4:13).

You don't have to wait until you're dead to be seated with Jesus in glory. I'm already seated with Him.

Ephesians 2:5-6: 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

In the light of Acts 2:29,34 where is David now?

When a Christian dies he goes to be with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better.

David is in heaven, like Abraham (Luke 16:19-31).

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alan,

I appreciate your reply, but I do not appreciate the Icon and message that you placed at the heading. I consider the symbol of the “cross” as the symbol of the corrupt Catholic Church and all that subscribe to many of their wrong doctrines. It reminds me of the Inquisition and the persecution of the faithful whose blood was poured out at the Christ Altar crying out for vengeance against a corrupt Church. Tyndale was one of these persecuted by the Church.

Originally Posted by Alan Swallows

My view on the matter is as consistent as God's word on the matter. Death will be destroyed when we receive our glorified bodies.

Yes, death will be destroyed in us when we are changed from mortal to immortal, but there will be mortals who survive Armageddon and the judgements of that time Isaiah 2:1-4, 65:17-20, Zechariah 14 . They and their descendants will die during the 1000 years, and death will only be destroyed at the end of the 1000 years.

After defeating death soundly, Jesus will hand the kingdom over to His Father and then take it back again to reign for a thousand years, after which He will give death a second thrashing, casting it into the lake of fire. So there will be two reigns of Christ (from His ascension to His return and from His return for 1,000 years) and two resurrections. Not to mention He has to destroy the earth by fire somewhere in there. I won't pretend to know how it will all work. I'll take it on faith. I think we'll find out soon enough.

Jesus will not hand the kingdom back to the Father at his return. This is when he begins his reign on earth for 1000 years.

This and the rest of your response seem to be a mixture of two theologies. There was a replacement of the Apostolic teaching concerning the Millennium with the concept that the Church was the Kingdom of God. Later Augustine, when Rome was overrun, wrote the City of God and again the Church was equated with the Kingdom of God, suppressing the understanding of the Millennium.

In the Encyclopædia Britannica 14th edn., the article on The Millennium by A. Harnack traces the change by which "Chiliasm" (belief in the 1000 year reign of Christ) was gradually excluded from the teaching of the church, and the doctrine that the church itself was God's kingdom established in its place. The following extract illustrates this change:
"Faith in the nearness of Christ's second advent and the establishing of his reign of glory on the earth was undoubtedly a strong point in the primitive Christian Church . . . The earlier fathers, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Tertullian, believed in Chiliasm simply because it was a part of the tradition of the Church and because Marcion and the Gnostics would have nothing to do with this conception. It is the same all through the 3rd and 4th centuries with those Latin theologians who escaped the influence of Greek speculation . . . These facts show how vigorously the early hopes of the future maintained themselves in the West . . . This state of matters, however, gradually disappeared after the end of the 4th century. The change was brought about by two causes -- first, Greek theology, which reached the West chiefly through Jerome, Rufinus and Ambrose, and second the new idea of the Church wrought out by Augustine on the basis of the altered political situation of the Church. Augustine was the first who ventured to teach that the Catholic Church in its empirical form, was the kingdom of Christ, that the millennial kingdom had commenced with the appearing of Christ, and was therefore an accomplished fact. By this doctrine of Augustine's the old millenarianism, though not completely extirpated, was at least banished from the official theology".

But sincere seekers of Biblical Truth on this subject came to a better understanding, and a rejection of the Augustine view:
In a book by WL Lumpkin “Baptist Confessions of Faith”, Revised Edition 1969, the following is Clause XXII of the Standard Confession of 1660:
“We believe that the same Lord Jesus who showed himself alive after his passion, by many infallible proofs, Acts 1:3 which was taken from the Disciples and carried up into Heaven Luke 24:51. Shall so come in like manner as he was seen go into Heaven, Acts 1:9–11. And when Christ who is our life shall appear, we shall also appear with him in glory, Col. 3:4. For then shall he be King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, Rev. 19:16, for the Kingdom is his, and he is the Governor among the Nations, Ps. 22:28, and King over all the earth, Zech. 14:9, and we shall reign (with him) on the Earth, Rev. 5:10, the Kingdoms of this World, (which men so mightily strive after how to enjoy) shall become the Kingdoms of our Lord, and his Christ, Rev. 11:15, for all is yours, (O ye that overcome this world) for ye are Christ’s and Christ is God’s, 1 Cor. 3:22, 23. For unto the Saints shall be given the Kingdoms, and the greatness of the Kingdom, under (mark that) the whole Heaven, Dan. 7:27. Though [alas] now many men be scarce content that the Saints should have so much as being among them; but when Christ shall appear, then shall be their day, then shall be given unto them power over the Nations, to rule them with a Rod of Iron, Rev. 2:26–27, then shall they receive a Crown of life, which no man shall take from them, nor they by any means turned or overturned from it, for the oppressor shall be broken in pieces, Ps. 72:4, and their now vain, rejoicings turned into mourning and bitter Lamentations, as it is written, Job. 20:5–7.

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

[Basilissa]

Originally Posted by TrevorL

Jesus will not hand the kingdom back to the Father at his return. This is when he begins his reign on earth for 1000 years.

This and the rest of your response seem to be a mixture of two theologies. <<<Most of the post deleted for brevity>>>

Dear Trevor,

You know what I think? I think you're reading too many commentaries and that makes you overthink what the Bible really says.

Brother Alan is not mixing any theologies. He reads what the Bible says and repeats it, without adding anything to it. When you accuse him of being mixed up you accuse the Bible of being internally contradictory. Why would you want to do such a thing?

I will pray for you.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Basilissa,

Originally Posted by Basilissa

You know what I think? I think you're reading too many commentaries and that makes you overthink what the Bible really says.

Brother Alan is not mixing any theologies. He reads what the Bible says and repeats it, without adding anything to it. When you accuse him of being mixed up you accuse the Bible of being internally contradictory. Why would you want to do such a thing?

I appreciate your comments and thoughts. The Bible is not internally contradictory, but with care and prayerful meditation the simple overall picture can be revealed. I am unaware of your and Alan’s environment, especially on the subject of prophecy and Christ’s returns and the Kingdom. You may or may not be aware that there are many schools of thought. To mention only a few, there are pre-millennial, post-millennial and a-millennial. All of these views claim support from reading of the Bible. For example, refer to your earlier Post, either the earth is going to be destroyed and burnt up when Christ returns OR his return will usher in a time of restoration and refreshing. I agree with the latter, and yes there will be “fiery” judgements associated with Christ’s coming, but the details are clearly seen in many prophecies.

To some extent it depends on what verses that you give the most weight, or position as a major building block. If we gave a child nine blocks to arrange as a jigsaw and complete a picture, hopefully the overall view and adjacent detail will help to establish a correct perspective and final result. The child could then progress to a 25-piece and eventually when older a 500-piece.

I do not know what school of thought predominates in your immediate community, but from my experience many Baptists have adopted the Augustine view and reject the Millennium. Another witness is the historian Edward Gibbon, who gives some indication of the change from the Millenium view to the view that was gradually adopted from Constantine onwards, and this view seems to be popular with some Baptists.
“The ancient and popular doctrine of the Millennium was intimately connected with the second coming of Christ. As the works of creation had been finished in six days, their duration, in their present state, according to a tradition which was attributed to the prophet Elijah, was fixed to six thousand years. By the same analogy it was inferred that this long period of labor and contention, which was now almost elapsed (as they supposed), would be succeeded by a joyful Sabbath of a thousand years; and that Christ, with the triumphant band of the Saints and the elect who had escaped death, or who had been miraculously revived, would reign upon earth till the time appointed for the last and general resurrection. So pleasing was this hope to the minds of believers, that the New Jerusalem, the seat of this blissful kingdom, was quickly adorned with all the gayest colors of the imagination. A felicity consisting only of pure and spiritual pleasure would have appeared too refined for its inhabitants, who were still supposed to possess their human nature and senses. A garden of Eden with the amusements of pastoral life, was no longer suited to the advanced state of society which prevailed under the Roman Empire. A city was therefore erected, of gold and precious stones, and a supernatural plenty of corn and wine was bestowed on the adjacent territory; in the free enjoyment of whose spontaneous productions, the happy and benevolent people was never to be restrained by any jealous laws of exclusive property. The assurance of such a millennium was carefully inculcated by a succession of fathers, from Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, who conversed with the immediate disciples of the apostles, down to Lactantius, who was preceptor to the son of Constantine. Though it might not be universally received, it appears to have been the reigning sentiment of the orthodox believers; and it seems so well adapted to the desires and apprehensions of mankind, that it must have contributed in a very considerable degree to the progress of the Christian faith. But when the edifice of the church was almost completed, the temporary support was laid aside. The doctrine of Christ’s reign upon earth was at first treated as a profound allegory, was considered by degrees as a doubtful and useless opinion, and was at length rejected as the absurd invention of heresy and fanaticism. A mysterious prophecy (the Apocalypse) which still forms a part of the sacred canon, but which was thought to favor the exploded sentiment, has very narrowly escaped the proscription of THE CHURCH.”

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

[BrotherLarry]

Is this still going on?

"Be still, and know that I am God." (Psalm 46:10)

[Basilissa]

Dear Trevor,

I have read your reply with much attention, and I still think that you are overthinking it and reading way too many commentaries. I hope that will not prove to be detrimental for your health:

Ecclesiastes 12:12-13
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.


I think it is clear that God doesn't want us to read too much, and therefore to think too much. Just reading the Bible and obeying it is enough.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Basilissa and others,

Originally Posted by Basilissa

I have read your reply with much attention, and I still think that you are overthinking it and reading way too many commentaries. I hope that will not prove to be detrimental for your health:
Ecclesiastes 12:12-13 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
I think it is clear that God doesn't want us to read too much, and therefore to think too much. Just reading the Bible and obeying it is enough.

I appreciate your concern. Possibly you do not have Bible Classes where a speaker after the reading of a chapter seeks to explain the meaning. Our senior expositor is considering Isaiah, and he has about 5 classes per year and now is up to Isaiah 28. In preparation I read the chapter and also comments by other reliable expositors. Part of my responsibility as librarian is to mp3 record all the meetings, and together with slides make them available to older or sick members who cannot attend. I am also able to replay these talks for my own benefit. I suggest that most of the time we read, or hear a talk we gain only 10% of what we have considered. Hearing the second time improves this, depending on the detail.

This aspect of recording has awakened another interest or hobby, listening to other speakers. I have collected many talks including some on Isaiah, and these give added perspective and help gain a better understanding of each chapter. I collect mp3 talks from other sources and distribute these in our meeting. Before I wrote a brief Post on Psalm 1 I read my personal notes, listened to a talk by a speaker in 1970, and listened to a recent Baptist Pastor. In contrast to your and Alan’s advice this Pastor mentioned some thoughts from Adam Clarke, CS Lewis and CH Spurgeon, as well as giving a broad, simple oversight of the Psalm, with many personal touches that made his talk interesting. He spoke for 40 minutes, but a reading of Psalm 1 would only take 1 minute. I suggest that you would benefit by a closer consideration of a subject.

I have decided to have a rest from this thread and from this forum. When I first joined I prepared an article on Psalm 72 and I had hoped that this would be my first Post. Instead this forum is set up to require entry via “The introduction forum”. As a result I became involved in subjects such as KJV only and predestination. These are subjects that I had never seriously considered before but the few things that I stated was sufficient in my estimation. Even though it is outside the scope of this introduction forum I decided to Post the Psalm 72 article and this appears as Item #94 in this thread. I also enjoyed posting a few thoughts on Psalm 1, Item #89. No further response has been made on either of these Psalms.

Because of my different view on a number of subjects it was suggested that I should move on. This suggestion was possibly also prompted because of my abruptness on several occasions. I have not been very diplomatic, nor explained my position very clearly. I appreciate the opportunity to have met some interesting people even though we have not been able to agree on many things.

Alan and Basilissa, you have been relatively patient with me. Alan, I am a little offended by your Funeral Service advertisement. As I am destined to burn in hell forever in the estimation of this forum, then I do not qualify to be buried by you. Reckoning from my age and health that could be soon. I would be happy to lie in the grave, even an unmarked grave, awaiting the resurrection call at the return of Jesus. If accepted, then to participate in the 1000 years reign of Jesus when he sits upon the throne of David in Jerusalem. If I am rejected at the judgement seat, to accept my fate to suffer the equivalent of destruction in Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnon. This was the rubbish heap outside Jerusalem, where the fire was not quenched or the worms did not cease until the bodies were destroyed. If this is my destiny, exactly what circumstances is not directly revealed, but my body and life will be consumed, and I will suffer the second death, a complete cessation of being. I worship a merciful and yet just God. He does not torture forever.

If I had been admitted to the forum, I would have liked to possibly make a few comments on some existing threads, hopefully in a constructive manner. Some of the subjects that I would have liked to start were Psalm 8, Isaiah 6, some aspects of Galatians including the connection between the land promise (not heaven going) to Abraham Genesis 13:14-15 and Galatians 3:8,16,26-29. Regarding prophecy the subject of the King of the North in Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40-45 is relevant to today. My belief is that this king is Russia, and that the future indication of his role will be more evident when he invades Turkey, some time before moving down into the Middle East. The problems in Syria and the Russian involvement could be some indication of the start of these events.

Brief mention was made of the seraphim in Isaiah 6, and I asked did anyone have a suggestion on the wings covering face, feet and flying. My understanding of this is that these things are tentatively fulfilled in Jesus in John 12, and completely fulfilled in some of his sayings and events as revealed later in John’s gospel. I will leave you to determine the detail. What was accomplished in Jesus is revealed and the call goes out for our voluntary submission to the righteousness of God in the gospel of the kingdom and name. Perhaps you may like to consider these things.

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalm 38:15, 21-22 (KJV): 15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God. 21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me. 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.

[I Man Rastafari]

Trevor you seem to be of the Fidel Castro school of public speaking. All the communists in my home country which is Jamaica like to give long speeches like he used to. I have followed your long and endlessly twisting monologues for some time now as part of my study of white people. I have a number of white girls that I am studying here at my school and so I see that there are different kinds of white girls. Also these fine Christians here are different one from another in some ways and they have helped my study immensely. My dilemma is that you are the only white man who drones on like you do that I am able to study. Are other white men like you or are singular? Are all white men from Australia like you? What did you do with the Black people who really own Australia?

Jah Guide
Trevor

[Alan Swallows Waiting for Email Confirmation]

Originally Posted by TrevorL

I will suffer the second death, a complete cessation of being.

The second death is not a complete cessation of being. It is a state of eternal torment.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

[Alan Swallows Waiting for Email Confirmation]

My last post was made from my phone while I was in the hearse on the way to the cemetery. I now have a chance to provide you with a full list of Scriptures proving that hell is eternal.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Second Thessalonians 1:7-9: 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude 12-13: 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Do you doubt the meaning of "for ever and ever" in Revelation 5:13: And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

The fires of hell are unquenchable.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Why would God keep the fires of hell burning for eternity if the wicked will cease to be? God is not wasteful, you know.

Anyway, you say you are moving on from these forums. I will not bid you Godspeed, I will just leave you with the words of the apostle John.

Second John 10-11: 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

[Dr Laurence Niles]

Originally Posted by TrevorL

Possibly you do not have Bible Classes where a speaker after the reading of a chapter seeks to explain the meaning.

Now this has me very confused: the meaning of the Bible(KJV1611) is the literal reading.

Does Leviticus 20:13 not mean that the gaywise should be out to death?

Does 1 John 3:5 not mean that Jesus is free of sin?

Does Mathew 27:46 not mean that Jesus cried out to Himself asking if He had forsaken Himself about nine hours after been put on the cross?

None of that requires somebody to tell YOU what to think! Indeed, Jesus does not want us to think at all!

Matthew 6:25 "Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?"

You have some nerve trying to force True Christians™ to think about the Bible(KJV1611)

It's thinking too much about the Bible(KJV1611) that drives people away from Christianinty in droves

YIC