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Catholic Superstition The lies of the Catholic "church" exposed in light of the truth of Scripture

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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-20-2010, 03:57 PM

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Originally Posted by Moses. View Post
do i have to really state the obvious Jesus is using hyperbole if he was not than who follows him would be his mother, he is trying to make a point that who ever follows him is his family.
So the parts of the Bible that you want to take literally are to be taken literally, while the rest is obviously hyperbole?

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Luke 11:27-28: And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
what has that got anything to do with GENERATIONS that including mine and your generation calling her Blessed.
So when you imagine a conflict between the words of Mary and the words of Our Lord (a conflict that doesn't exist, as Heathen_Basher has shown), you think that the words of Mary prevail? Then it's official: You Romanists really do exalt Mary even over Christ.

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see your interperating the scriptures and pretending you are not.
Again, it's called reading comprehension.

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now you "cherry picking" has been answered you still have not came up with one single evidence about the existance of your church before the reformation or again are you going to ignore this question.
Has anyone here said that Landover Baptist Church as a corporate entity has existed since A.D. 33? No? Then you're attacking a straw man. Again, let me remind you of the topic of your own thread: "Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus." We've already provided ample evidence that it isn't.


This church is dedicated to preaching True Christianity™ and the King James Bible exactly as they are, with no alterations to make them more politically correct for modern liberals. If you think that we've misquoted or twisted Scripture or quoted any verse out of context, please explain in detail how we've done so. Otherwise, if what you read on this site offends you, then you're offended by Almighty God and His Word, not by us.

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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-20-2010, 03:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Moses. View Post
wow i can see you have done some research, um tell me this... did any of them teach herecy?...No, did they all have an instant successor yes they did. trying to prove somthing by finding faults minor faults does not really prove anything! they still had an unbroken chain no matter what happend to the pope and they never ever taught any kind of herecy and what ever they said was still infallible which is the whole point!
Yes, that whole infallible bit,...
Donation of Constantine
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The Donation of Constantine (Latin, Donatio Constantini)[1] is a forged Roman imperial decree by which the emperor Constantine I supposedly transferred authority over Rome and the western part of the Roman Empire to the pope. Scholars have dated the forgery between the Eighth and the Ninth Century.
What a fine trusty worthy source the papacy is.



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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-20-2010, 04:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses. View Post
wow i can see you have done some research, um tell me this... did any of them teach herecy?...No, did they all have an instant successor yes they did. trying to prove somthing by finding faults minor faults does not really prove anything! they still had an unbroken chain no matter what happend to the pope and they never ever taught any kind of herecy and what ever they said was still infallible which is the whole point!
Funny that. I found this on a Catholic website. http://www.romancatholicism.org/jans...jansenists.htm

It's rather Long, I won't quote the whole thing. Feel free to look at it on your own time.

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Modern Traditionalists generally admit the last five popes to have been heretics. Many of them - including Father Feeney, Saint Benedict Center, Most Holy Family Monastery and RJMI - consider popes from before Vatican II to have issued heretical statements.

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Heresy of the Vatican II popes


The heresy of the popes during and after the Second Vatican Council needs little proof, as it is so well known to all Traditionalists bar some of the indult crowd. It is conceded by both sedevacantists and non-sedevacantists alike.

Their heresy concerns, in particular, matters related to the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics. We shall mention briefly the well-known papal errors concerning;

The Old Covenant still being operative for Jews,
The salvific role claimed for the various religions,
The Church being spread through the various sects and religions,
The practice of dialogue and co-operation with other religions that is not aimed at conversion,
&c.

In particular we refer the reader to ample documentation exhibiting the heresy of the Vatican II establishment and John Paul II in particular, that all people shall finally be saved (apokatastasis).

Thus we can with confidence list the five most recent popes as heretical;

John XXIII,
Paul VI,
John Paul I,
John Paul II and
Benedict XVI.


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Papal heresy before Vatican II


We shall argue in common with various Traditionalists that, in fact, the present spate of heretical popes does extend further back, with several popes before Vatican II enunciating, or otherwise encouraging, heresy regarding the possibility of the salvation of non-Catholics.

The popes contradicted the defined doctrine that “no one at all” is saved outside of the Catholic Church. Pope Innocent III defined it as follows at the IV Lateran Council, which was an ecumenical council held in 1215 that all Catholic theologians recognize to be infallible:

“One indeed is the Church of the Faithful, outside of which no one at all is saved.”

The list of heretical popes who contradicted this dogma includes;

Pius IX,
Pius X and
Pius XII.


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The heresy of Pius IX


It is well known that Pius IX contradicted the defined dogma that no one can be saved who dies outside of the Catholic Church. Liberal apologists have cited him in their favor since the nineteenth century. There are several passages that people cite from him but for the sake of brevity, we shall cite but one.

“The Catholic Church is the temple of God, outside of which, except with the excuse of invincible ignorance, there is no hope of life or salvation.” (Singulari Quidem)


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The heresy of Pius X


Evidence against Pius X is found in the 1905 Catechism that bears his name, which he had compiled for the use of the laity of the whole Church and the use of which he imposed on the diocese of Rome; he wrote most of it. The old Catholic Encyclopedia says the following.

“The present pontiff, Pius X, has prescribed a catechism for use in the Diocese of Rome and in its ecclesiastical province, and has expressed a desire that it should be adopted throughout Italy. It has been translated into English, French, Spanish, and German, and a movement has begun with a view to extending its use to other countries besides Italy, especially to Spain, where the conditions are similar.” (T.B. Scannell, Christian Doctrine)

It is incredible that some Feeneyites should claim that Pius was neither responsible for nor even conscious of the Catechism’s contents. Indeed it is particularly laughable that the Brothers Dimond have written that “it is just a fallible Catechism that went out during his reign and was given his name”, as if Pius had nothing to do with it and it had a life all of its own, especially as they are so ready to accuse others of “dishonesty” and “human respect”.

The following passage is particularly incriminating.

“29. Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved? A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.”

The brothers at Most Holy Family Monastery have denounced this Catechism as heretical.


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The heresy of Pius XI


The evidence against Pius XI is only anecdotal.

He is said to have said the following to Cardinal Facchinetti, whom he had just appointed to be the apostolic delegate to Libya.

“Do you think that you are going among infidels? Muslims attain to salvation. The ways of Providence are infinite.” (Martin Lings, A Sufi Saint of the Twentieth Century (University of California Press, 1973); L’Ultima, Anno VIII, 75-76, p. 261 (Florence, 1954))

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The heresy of Pius XII


Evidence against the orthodoxy of Pius XII is found in the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston. As the Letter says, Pius “deigned to give his approval, that the … explanations pertinent to the doctrine” of no salvation outside the Church, contained in the Letter, be given. And as the introduction to the published Letter, written by an Archbishop, says, “Pope Pius XII, has given full approval to [the] decision” of the Holy Office to order the Archbishop to make the Letter public.

The Letter gives support to heresy by claiming that an implicit desire suffices for salvation in circumstances of invincible ignorance, because he did not specify that an explicit faith is essential in central mysteries such as the Trinity and the Incarnation. Indeed, he knowingly left everyone to interpret him as saying that non-Catholics can thus be saved.

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The heresy of Pius V


Pius V condemned in Ex Omnibus Afflictionibus (1567) various Augustinian propositions advanced by Michael Bajus that had been infallibly approved by popes of the patristic Church.


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Approved in early Church - “No one has anything of his own but lying and sin. But if man has any truth and justice it is from that fountain. […] Without God man can do no good.” (Orange II 22, 20)

Condemned in Bajus - “Free will, without the help of God’s grace, has power only for sin.” (Ex Omnibus 27)

Approved in early Church - “Worldly desire creates the fortitude of the Gentiles, but the charity of God, which is diffused in our hearts, not by free will, which is from us, but by the Holy Spirit, which is given to us produces the fortitude of the Christians.” (Orange II, 17)

Condemned in Bajus - “All love of a rational creature is either vicious cupidity by which the world is loved, which is prohibited by John; or that praiseworthy charity by which ‘when poured forth by the Spirit’, God is loved.” (Ex Omnibus 38)


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The heresy of Innocent X
Innocent condemned in Cum Occasione (1653) defined Augustinian doctrine, supposedly in sentences taken from the writings of Cornelius Jansen.
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Approved in early Church - “No one even after having been restored by the grace of baptism is capable of overcoming the snares of the devil and subduing the concupiscences of the flesh, unless he has received through the daily help of God the perseverance of the good way of life.” (Indiculus 3)

Condemned in Jansen -


“Some of God’s precepts are impossible to the just, who wish and strive to keep them, according to the present powers which they have; the grace, by which they are made possible, is also wanting.” (Cum Occasione 1)

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The heresy of Clement XI

We should be here all day if we were to compare every error of Clement with the early teaching. He condemned in Unigenitus (1713) defined Augustinian teaching in the writings of Pasquier Quesnel.
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Approved in early Church
Condemned in Quesnel
“Without God, man can do no good. God does many good things in man, which man does not do; indeed, man does no good that God does not perform that man may do.” (Orange II, 20)
“Thus, O Lord, all things are possible to him for whom You make all things possible by effecting those same things in him.” (Unigenitus 4)
“God operates in the hearts of men and in the free will itself, so that a holy thought, a pious plan and every motion of good will is from God, because we can do anything good through him, without who we can do nothing.” (Indiculus 6)
“The efficacious grace of Jesus Christ, which is the efficacious principle of every kind of good, is necessary for every good work; without it, not only is nothing done, but nothing can be done.” (Unigenitus 2)
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The heresy of Pius VI
Pius VI attempted to rehabilitate in Auctorem Fidei (1794) the heretical Pelagian fable of Limbo, ignoring the definition of Carthage XVI that is contrary to him. Carthage taught that unbaptised infants have the punishment of fire in hell with the devil and that there is no place of rest and happiness for them anywhere (limbo).

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Approved in early Church
Condemned in Pistoia
“It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: “In my house there are many mansions”: that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where happy infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is life eternal, let him be anathema. For when the Lord says: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5], what Catholic will doubt that he will be a partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a coheir of Christ? For he who lacks the right part will without doubt run into the left [cf. Matt. 25:41,46].” (Carthage XVI)
“The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable, that place of the lower regions (which the faithful generally designate by the name of the limbo of children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of the punishment of fire, just as if, by this very fact, that these who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state free of guilt and of punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk,—false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools.” (Auctorem Fidei 26)
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Conclusion – twelve heretical popes exposed

We have exposed twelve popes as heretical.

Traditionalists generally admit the five most recent popes to have been heretics, whether they are sedevacantists or not.

Many Feeneyites admit a further three popes to have been heretical.

Jansenists, with just as much reason as the Traditionalists and the Feeneyites, admit a further four popes to have been heretical.

It is not our intention to imply that these are the only twelve popes who have been heretics or that no other popes fell into heresy over the issue of “Jansenism” (which is simply the doctrine and discipline of the patristic Church as historians are wont to admit).

Catholic theologians generally admit several other popes to have been heretical, including, most famously Liberius and Honorious.

It is not particularly controversial amongst Catholic theologians to say that popes have been heretical. Indeed, Pope Adrian VI stated as follows.

“If by the Roman Church you mean its head or pontiff, it is beyond question that he can err even in matters touching the faith. He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgement or decretal. In truth, many Roman pontiffs were heretics. The last of them was Pope John XXII.” (Quaest. in IV Sent.)

For further commentary on papal heresy, see the essay, The Right and Duty to Resist a Pope, which was republished by Saint Benedict Center.
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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-20-2010, 04:30 PM

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Originally Posted by Moses. View Post
Sister why is there 9000 different Protestant denominations, isnt it because of this exact reason don't they all beleive that they are right and that the others have "twisted" the true Word. how can one choose which one is right Therefore Jesus needed only one true representative Authority here on earth. That Authority is the Catholic Church and its infallible teachings.
Funny. I know some Eastern Orthodox people who make the same claim
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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-20-2010, 04:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Moses. View Post
ok so say you and a friend go to the same church both read the same verse you interpert it on way your friend the other, you both think the Holy Spirit gave you a "revelation" which one is right? unless one has authority sister, how can you know which one is right.
Yet Paul implores people to check the Scriptures, to make sure his words match up with it, rather than declaring he is obviously right because God appointed him.
"upon this rock I will build My church" (Mt 16:18)
"do not say ‘I am of Peter’" (1 Cor 1:10)
"as gardeners and builders... each man must be careful how he builds on it." (1 Cor 3:10)
"I used the gardener and builder figures to that you learn not to exceed what is written" (1 Cor 4:6)
Jesus intended his church to built upon scripture, not Peter or oral traditions.

Luke 1:1-4 is an irrefutable blow to oral traditionalists:
"Luke begins by mentioning uninspired gospels by Christians, then the oral tradition of the apostles and concludes that scripture alone will allow Theophilus to know for certain what the truth is.
Matthew 4:1-11. Three times Jesus was tempted by the Devil and each time Jesus replied exactly the same three dangerous words that defeated the Devil: "IT IS WRITTEN" Read it for yourself! If any one could have used oral tradition, it was Jesus, yet he chose the only safe and sure way to defeat Satan: Scripture. We just with that the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches held scripture alone in the same high regard!


2 Timothy 3:16-17: No matter how traditionalists twist it, it still says that scripture alone is all-sufficient to equip us for EVERY good work.



Luke 10:26: "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?" Jesus expected even his enemies to correctly interpret the Bible by simply reading and studying it. Unlike Jesus, Catholics and Orthodox don’t ask you what you think scripture says, they just tell you how their church interprets it and you have no choice but to accept what they tell you.


Acts 17:11-12: Even though the apostles were inspired with genuine oral revelation, they always directed people to the scriptures for the final determination of truth. Oral tradition is worthless without the witness of scripture! Unlike the apostles, Catholics and Orthodox would never send you to scripture, since they don’t think you can even understand it!


Never did Jesus refer to oral tradition to prove or defend truth.
  1. Never does Jesus refer to oral traditions in a positive way.
  2. Every time he defends truth he refers to the scriptures.
  3. The only times Jesus referred to Oral traditions, was condemning them: 'But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death'; but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),' you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." (Mark 7:7-13)
Jesus made over 100 references to scripture. Jesus never relies upon oral traditions but scripture alone. Let’s follow the Lord’s pattern of relying upon scripture!
  1. "Have you not read" Matthew 12:3
  2. "have you not read in the Law" Matthew 12:5
  3. "Did you never read in the Scriptures" Matthew 21:42
Scriptures were read in the churches every Lord’s Day:
  1. Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. (1 Timothy 4:13)
Scripture is understandable, even by young children:
  1. "from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." 2 Timothy 3:15
  2. "if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; Ephesians 3:2-5
  3. "For we write nothing else to you than what you read and understand, and I hope you will understand until the end" 2 Corinthians 1:13
The Gospel of John, by itself, is sufficient to bring about saving faith in Christ without oral traditions and the other three gospels! Actually, this may be true of each of the four gospels, although it is only stated by John:
  1. Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:30-31)
Scripture alone is all-sufficient for complete hope, joy and assurance of salvation without any oral tradition:
  1. For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. (Romans 15:4)
  2. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.1 John 1:4
  3. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13
Scripture is the standard to which oral tradition may not be added: Although Roman Catholic and Orthodox defenders dismiss Rev 22:18 as applying only to the single book of revelation, these four texts prove it is a principle that applies to the whole Bible. Notice also that God knew that Revelation was the last book of the 66 book canon and that the warning not to add or take away from scripture is at the very end of the very last book of the canon. This simply cannot be coincidence but is God’s eternal warning not to use oral traditions in addition to scripture! Although Revelation was not always placed in its current position at the end of the Bible, everyone always realized that it was the last book written.
  1. "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." Revelation 22:18-19
  2. "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2
  3. "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it." Deuteronomy 12:32
  4. "Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6
Scripture is the Lord's command:
  1. If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment. 1 Corinthians 14:37
Scripture is the standard through which Jesus will judge: The words of Christ are only known today from scripture. Although traditionalists claim oral tradition, they cannot come up with even one thing Jesus said, that is not recorded in scripture that will judge us. Scripture is the all-sufficient standard for the "words of Jesus". Although we cannot be certain that the phrase, "books were opened" in Rev 20:12, refers to 66 books of scripture, we are certain that no oral tradition is part of Judgement. The passage clearly states that books, to the exclusion of oral tradition, is the standard of judgement. The Law of Liberty in Jas 2:12 is a direct reference to scripture.
  1. "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. John 12:48
  2. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. Revelation 20:12
  3. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. James 2:12
Scripture is how we are reminded of oral traditions, proving oral tradition is replace by scripture: "This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles." 2 Peter 3:1-2
  1. Here we have a reference to oral traditions, "spoken beforehand".
  2. Although traditionalists claim oral tradition, they cannot come up with even one phrase or the apostles Jesus said, that is not recorded in scripture!
  3. Yet Peter uses scripture as the method of reminding Christians of this oral tradition.
  4. Since there is no known "oral tradition" of the specific words spoken, it is obvious that scripture replaced oral tradition.
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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-20-2010, 08:49 PM

So is this how all of you papists play the game? Start a thread, get your Biblical asses handed back to you, go start another thread?

Because I know I've seen that list on here before, in another thread. And since the catholic invasion started a week or so ago, all you people seem to do is follow the steps above.

If I was interested in getting my boys raped joining the catholic church, I'd go to a catholic board. Why are you on our BAPTIST board spreading your filth like the dung that it is? You know we're going to keep coming back at you with scripture that shows how wrong you are. We're not Biblical cherry pickers that need to be spoon fed the Bible by a bunch of perverts in dresses.


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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-22-2010, 10:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogdana Alkeav View Post
Funny that. I found this on a Catholic website. http://www.romancatholicism.org/jans...jansenists.htm

It's rather Long, I won't quote the whole thing. Feel free to look at it on your own time.













:








since you have opted for the 'copy and paste' and im starting to get tired with selective text out of context im just going to reply with a copy and paste.
Quote:
Can a Pope Ever Be a Heretic?
Some persons have claimed that if a heretic is elected Pope, then he is not a valid Pope. And some have claimed that if a valid Pope falls into heresy, he ceases to be a valid Pope. Both claims are entirely false for several reasons. Other persons have refuted these false claims, but they were not able to give a clear and irrefutable theological reason as to why an elected Pope can certainly never be a heretic, and why no Pope can ever fall into heresy. They generally try to say that God would not permit such an event, but they cannot explain it further.

Election of a Heretic?

In order to be a valid Pope, three things are required:

1) a proper election,
2) his consecration as a Bishop (before or after his election)
3) his acceptance of the role of Pope of his own free will.

Suppose an unlikely event (this is hypothetical; it is not a prediction): a heretic is elected Pope. The election is of the proper form, and he is already a Bishop, but he is also a heretic (either secretly or openly). In order for the elected man to be a valid Pope, he must freely accept the role of Pope. When he does so, of his own free will, in that moment he becomes a valid Pope and in that very same moment he receives the gift of the fullness of the Sacred Magisterium, which is entirely incompatible with heresy. His acceptance of his election as Pope constitutes, in and of itself, an implicit repentance from heresy, and that implicit repentance combined with the gift of the infallible Sacred Magisterium immediately removes from him every trace of heresy. He might not call to mind his former heresy at that moment, yet it is vanquished from him.

And at a later time, when the issue that gave rise to his former heresy arises in his mind, he himself will find that he no longer adheres to that heresy. He will give due consideration to the teachings of the Church, and he will apply those teachings under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, regardless of his own personal holiness or lack thereof. He will no longer believe any truly heretical doctrine, even in his own mind or heart, nor can any Pope ever teach or believe a truly heretical doctrine.

See my article, The Three Charisms of the Sacred Magisterium, which further explains the fullness of the gift of the Sacred Magisterium, its three charisms, and its incompatibility with heresy.
http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/three-charisms.htm

Any Pope might teach erroneous points of doctrine, when teaching under the non-infallible ordinary Magisterium, if those points of doctrine are not essential to salvation, but such minor errors are not heresy. A Pope might have an erroneous personal opinion on a point of doctrine not yet definitively decided by the Magisterium, but again this is not heresy.

Can a Valid Pope Fall into Heresy?

Some persons have claimed that one Pope or another, historically, was validly elected, but after his election he fell into heresy by teaching a false doctrine and so he ceased to be a valid Pope. Other persons have claimed that this has not happened in the past, but that it is theoretically possible. And those who claim that it is not possible have not been able to explain why it is not possible, other than to say that God would not permit it.

In truth, all valid Popes are entirely unable to fall into any actual heresy. This includes every Pope, past, present, and future, holy or sinful, from the Apostle Peter, through all his valid Successors, even to the very last Pope before the Return of Jesus Christ. Now there have been and there will be antipopes, who are like wolves among the faithful, but such a man (or woman) was never a valid Pope. And as to women antipopes, no woman can ever be a valid Pope under any circumstances whatsoever, because every Pope must also be a Bishop and a woman can never be a valid Bishop. Even after Christ returns, He will not ordain women as Bishops, nor can there ever be a valid female Pope.

The Gift of the Magisterium

The reason that no valid Pope can ever fall into heresy is that the Pope possesses the fullness of the gift of the Sacred Magisterium. The Sacred Magisterium consists of three charisms:

1) the participation of each Bishop (including the Pope acting as a fellow Bishop) in the infallible Sacred Magisterium (e.g. in Ecumenical Councils and in the Ordinary Universal Magisterium)
2) the role of the Pope to offer authority, leadership, and guidance to his fellow Bishops as they exercise the Sacred Magisterium with him
3) the ability of the Pope to teach infallibly, by his own authority, without the consent or participation of his fellow Bishops (Papal Infallibility)

Only the Pope has the fullness of the gift of the Sacred Magisterium, for only the Pope can exercise all three charisms. Any Bishop can participate in the infallible Sacred Magisterium by teaching in communion with the other Bishops and the Pope. But only the Pope has the gift of the fullness of the Sacred Magisterium. The Pope is the seat of the infallible Sacred Magisterium, and its infallibility does not merely prevent him from teaching heresy, but also prevents him personally from falling into heresy. For heresy is entirely incompatible with the Sacred Magisterium, and the Sacred Magisterium is infallible.

Individual Bishops can fall into heresy, because they do not have the fullness of the Sacred Magisterium, but only a degree of participation in it. A heretic can be elected as Bishop, and his acceptance of the office of Bishop does not, in and of itself, vanquish his heresy. For individual Bishops, other than the Pope, are not the seat of the Sacred Magisterium, nor do they have the gift of the fullness of the Sacred Magisterium.

No Pope Can Fall Into Heresy

Some persons claim that a valid Pope can teach heresy, but that when he does teach heresy, he ceases to be a valid Pope. This idea might seem to protect the exercise of the Sacred Magisterium by the Pope from error. But this claim actually nullifies the infallibility of the Sacred Magisterium. It is as if they are claiming that only true teachings are infallible, or that it is only a teaching under infallibility if it is true. This version of 'infallibility' is useless.

We do not first evaluate a teaching, and then, upon deciding that it is true, reach the conclusion that the Pope is still a valid Pope and that the teaching is infallible. If such were the case, then the infallibility of a teaching would not rest upon the gift of the Sacred Magisterium, but upon the personal evaluation of each teaching by each member of the faithful. The teachings of the Sacred Magisterium are not infallible because they are certainly true, rather they are certainly true because they are taught by the infallible Sacred Magisterium.

For the faithful must believe all teachings that fall under the Sacred Magisterium. And it is certain that God has made the Sacred Magisterium infallible to such a full extent that no Pope can ever fall into heresy, neither in his teachings, nor in his own mind and heart. For the office and the person of the Pope is the seat of the Sacred Magisterium. Otherwise, the infallibility of the Sacred Magisterium would be founded on sand, rather than on the Rock that is the Successor to Peter.

A Papal Decree About Heretical Popes

Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio, by Pope Paul IV, February 15, 1559:

“6. Further, if ever at any time it becomes clear that any Bishop … or likewise any Roman Pontiff before his promotion or elevation as a Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, had strayed from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy …then his promotion or elevation shall be null, invalid, and void… and they themselves who are thus promoted and assumed by that very fact, without any further declaration to be made, are deprived of every dignity, place, honor, title, authority, function and power….”

This papal decree would seem to prevent a heretic from being elected Pope. But it is problematic for a several reasons. First, this section (n. 6) of the document is one long complex sentence of over 300 words. The complexity of all the sentences in this document makes the meaning open to varying interpretations. Second, it states that if a man was a heretic before his election as Pope, his election is invalid even if he is elected with “the unanimous assent of all the cardinals.” Third, it states that no further declaration is needed for his election to be null and void. Fourth, it uses the phrase “if at any time” to indicate that even if it is discovered long after the election of a Pope that he was a heretic, his entire Papacy would still be invalid; this last measure places every Papacy in doubt, since we never have absolute knowledge about a Pope prior to his election.

And who would be qualified to determine that a newly-elected Pope is or was a heretic? If all the Cardinals agree in his election, then they certainly do not think that he is or was a heretic. So someone might claim that the Pope was a heretic, in opposition to most, if not all, of the Cardinals. And the document states that “no further declaration is needed” on the matter, so that it would seem to fall to each person to decide if the Pope ever was a heretic. Finally, it is not clear that the document excludes the idea that a Pope might fall into heresy after his election. Therefore, if at any time anyone disagrees with the doctrinal decision of a Pope, they might use this document as an excuse to call him a heretic and to depart from the Faith. (This has already happened with the sedevacantists and similar groups.)

Now in my considered theological opinion, no Pope can ever fall into heresy, since the gift of the infallible Sacred Magisterium resides in his person and office, not merely in his office. This does not mean that the Pope is personally infallible in all that he says and does as a private person, but it does mean that the Pope can never fall into heresy, even in his own private mind and heart. Also, if a heretic were ever elected as Pope, when he accepts his election of his own free will, then he has implicitly repented from his past heresy and so, by the same gift of the infallible Sacred Magisterium, he would immediately cease to be a heretic.

Therefore, by virtue of this truth, implicit in Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, that the Pope cannot fall into heresy, and that a heretic who accepts his election as Pope immediately ceases to be a heretic, the declaration of Pope Paul IV concerning the validity of the election of a formerly heretical Pope is null and void. It is nullified by Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, for no order under the temporal authority of the Church, even from the Roman Pontiff, retains its validity if it contradicts the infallible teaching of the spiritual authority of the Church, or of Divine Revelation. The temporal authority of the Church is subject to, and in the service of, its spiritual authority. And the spiritual authority of the Church is subject to, and in the service of, Divine Revelation.

Furthermore, no Pope can issue any decree under the temporal authority of the Church, no matter how strongly worded it might be, which would bind any or all future Popes without their consent. Certainly, a Pope can issue a decree which will retain its force until and unless a subsequent Pope amends or nullifies it. But to bind a future Pope irrevocably would be to reduce his authority. Each successive Pope would then have less authority than the previous Pope, due to the accumulation of irrevocable decrees under the temporal authority. But it is an indisputable doctrine of the Catholic Faith that each and every valid Pope has the same authority in spiritual and temporal matters as did Saint Peter the Apostle. Therefore, no Pope can bind future Popes using the temporal authority.

And decrees under the temporal authority of the Pope which seek to control the subsequent election of a future Pope have only a limited non-irreformable authority because the one who is elected immediately has authority to a greater degree than any such decree, and because the Cardinals and Bishops are entrusted with the temporal authority of the Church after the death or valid resignation of any Pope.

Now the spiritual teaching authority (the Magisterium) is another matter. When a Pope teaches infallibly under the spiritual authority of the Church, he is merely expressing a truth that was always found, at least implicitly, in Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture. All Popes are bound by all the teachings of Divine Revelation. Infallible teachings do not limit future Popes, they enlighten them. Thus, Popes who reign later have the advantage of the insightful teachings of past Popes, so that the Successors to Peter ever increase in knowledge. But they do not decrease in temporal or spiritual authority.

As a result of the above considerations, it is clear that the decree of Pope Paul IV was binding as concerns the Roman Pontiffs only during his administration as Pope. Subsequent Popes have changed the rules for electing the Pope, and have nullified all previous orders on that subject.

Universi Dominici Gregis

Pope John Paul II wrote the following in Universi Dominici Gregis:

“It is in fact an indisputable principle that the Roman Pontiff has the right to define and adapt to changing times the manner of designating the person called to assume the Petrine succession in the Roman See…. As determined above, I hereby declare abrogated all Constitutions and Orders issued in this regard by the Roman Pontiffs….”

The first part of this quote is from the introduction to the document, and the last part from its very end. Here Pope John Paul II has nullified (or abrogated) all past orders of past Popes related to the election of a Pope. Therefore, Pope Paul IV did not have the authority to bind all future Popes, even though his document states, “with this Our Constitution to be valid in perpetuity.” Here is an example of an error made by a Pope (namely, Pope Paul IV) under the temporal authority of the Church; for the temporal authority is always non-infallible. Pope Paul IV declared that his constitution would be valid in perpetuity, but it is not. Subsequent Popes were never bound by it. And Pope John Paul II specifically nullified all previous decrees, of all previous Popes, in so far as those decrees applied to the election of a Pope.

Conclusion

No Pope can ever fall into heresy because the Pope is the seat of the Sacred Magisterium and possesses all three of its charisms, in his person and office. If any heretic were validly elected as Pope, the act of his free will accepting his election would constitute an implicit repentance from any and all past heresies, and these heresies would then be immediately vanquished by the power of the Sacred Magisterium.

Pope Paul IV's decree invalidating any election of a Pope, if that Pope is ever found to have been a heretic prior to his election, is limited in its own validity on that particular point to the length of his own Papacy. Future Popes have never been bound by that provision because the temporal authority of each Pope cannot tread upon, limit, or in any way diminish the temporal authority of future Popes, lest the See of Peter continually diminish in power and authority.


by Ronald L. Conte Jr.
October 14, 2006
http://www.catholicplanet.com/RCC/heresy-papacy.htm

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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-22-2010, 10:34 AM

Quote:
Can a Pope Ever Be a Heretic?
Some persons have claimed that if a heretic is elected Pope, then he is not a valid Pope. And some have claimed that if a valid Pope falls into heresy, he ceases to be a valid Pope. Both claims are entirely false for several reasons.
How about the fact that the idea of a pope itself is heresy?

Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

2nd Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2nd Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2nd Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2nd Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2nd Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2nd Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.



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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-22-2010, 06:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses. View Post
since you have opted for the 'copy and paste' and im starting to get tired with selective text out of context im just going to reply with a copy and paste.
First of all, please explain to me how my quoting was selective, in what ways I quoted out of context, and what the original meaning of the article was that you claim I have misrepresented. Your lies don't diminish anything. I put the link. Anyone can go there and see that it represents exactly as I have quoted.

Second of all, your little copy and paste job would have been easier if it were just the words "The Pope cannot be a heretic" written out five thousand times. That's the sense I got after wasting several precious minutes of my life reading it.

All it basically says is that Catholics believe the Pope is just God's puppet with no free will, who can never proclaim heresy. It in no way answers the claims of the article I presented that there have, in fact, been several heretic Popes. It does not explain why they weren't heretics, or explain why the Catholic church has so often reversed its opinion on vital subjects. Honestly, did you even READ what I posted?
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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-23-2010, 08:48 AM

"No one here interprets the Bible, it is taken directly as written. It is the Word of the Lord. If you are interpreting the bible then you will be missing what it is saying to you." Exactly but sometimes in this troubled time it is easy to follow the crowd and miss God's call. Don't you see what Satan is doing? Are you so blinkered not to see it, like one twig is weak but many combined is stronger. Our youth and society is degrading so we blame other people. We need Jesus in our schools, home and society. We need to open the door for tolerance and respect. He (Satan) is dividing us by how we treat others and what we do. He is using our weakness against us. We split into different religions and creeds which weaken us and belittle one another. Through faith in Christ we are united. "Whoever believes in me will have eternal life" was Jesus's impassioned call. To love God and neighbor whether Jew, Greek, Catholic, Homosexual or whatever. He associated with the pariahs of society the outcasts, the weak the humble and unloved. With Jesus we are heir to God's kingdom whether Jew or Greek slave or free but it is our choice whether to follow or be damned. We suffer in life because God does care and is teaching us the RIGHT PATH of faith. Whoever picks up his cross and follows me is truly my brother. One faith, one creed and one God forever amen.
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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-23-2010, 11:29 AM

This is the trick that Satan uses to fool you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_wittm41 View Post
We need to open the door for tolerance and respect.
There is a long list of things that I don't tolerate or respect, but I won't bore you with all of that, just the top few: islamofascist terrorists, homers, goths, juggalos, hippies, bums, democrats, etc...


May you be a blessing to every life you touch.
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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-23-2010, 12:52 PM

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Originally Posted by Michael_wittm41 View Post
We need to open the door for tolerance and respect.
We do?


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Questions to ask liberal "Christians"Things that the Bible doesn't sayTolerance

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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-23-2010, 01:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Michael_wittm41 View Post
Exactly but sometimes in this troubled time it is easy to follow the crowd and miss God's call.... Our youth and society is degrading so we blame other people. We need Jesus in our schools, home and society.
Amen and amen.

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We need to open the door for tolerance and respect. He (Satan) is dividing us by how we treat others and what we do. He is using our weakness against us. We split into different religions and creeds which weaken us and belittle one another. Through faith in Christ we are united. "Whoever believes in me will have eternal life" was Jesus's impassioned call. To love God and neighbor whether Jew, Greek, Catholic, Homosexual or whatever.
Hold on a second, loving our neighbor includes trying to save them from Hell, doesn't it? The same Bible that tells us to love our neighbor also gives instruction on homosexuality and Catholic practices:

As for homos, here's what Paul said in Romans 1:26-32:

....God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet..... they which commit such things are worthy of death....

So Paul told us that homos are worthy of death. In what way do you put these verses into effect in your daily life?

As for Catholics, Jesus said in Mark 16:16, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.... It doesn't say he that believeth and was baptized. You have to believe when you are baptized or you will not be saved. Catholics have Bibles, they ought to read them instead of trusting their salvation to the word of some homo who calls himself a "priest."


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Default Re: Catholic Church ONLY Church Founded by Jesus. - 08-23-2010, 01:45 PM

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since you have opted for the 'copy and paste' and im starting to get tired with selective text out of context im just going to reply with a copy and paste.
Bogdana is an atheist pain in the neck; you should ignore her entirely as we do. However, she did raise some good points, even if she is incapable of expressing them in her own words. So, if you want to teach us what Catholics believe, and since you believe that popes cannot commit heresy, would you please start by telling us, do you agree with every doctrinal utterance made by every pope, without exception?


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