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Default Re: Yes. Abraham is an allegory. Paul is saying that he was not real. - 05-29-2018, 10:26 AM

Analysis

In Galatians 3-4, Paul uses four appeals to Scripture to support his argument that justification is by faith in Christ Jesus and not by doing the law (3:6-9; 3:10-14; 3:16-18; 4:21-31). Here, in his concluding argument, he addresses those who "desire to be subject to the law" with an elaborate allegory that is unique to Paul and unusual in the New Testament. In doing so he blends scriptural and traditional narrative detail about the two sons of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael (see Genesis 16-17, 21), with symbolic theological reflection related to the distinction of flesh and Spirit that runs through Galatians. Accordingly, Ishmael, as the son of the slave woman, is born "according to the flesh," while Isaac, the son of the free woman, is born "through the promise" (4:23).
Interpreting this story as an allegory, and picking up the argument of Galatians 3:15-17 with its reference to "will" or "covenant," Paul says that these two mothers and their sons symbolize two covenants, one corresponding to Sinai, the law, and slavery; the other corresponding to the heavenly Jerusalem, the promise, and freedom. Paul expands the allegory by linking the theme of barrenness. The barren Sarah is joined to the image of the barren Jerusalem--the earthly barren Jerusalem in exile--and contrasted with the fruitful Jerusalem of promise, the mother of all who are children of the promise (verse 27; see Isaiah 54:1).
Finally, Paul applies this allegorical reading to the current situation. As Isaac was persecuted by Ishmael, "it is now also," the present children of promise are being persecuted by those who are children of slavery and the law (verse 29). Just as Scripture at that time instructed Abraham to "cast out this slave woman with her son" (Genesis 21:10), so now Paul says that the Galatians need to exclude from their midst those who seek to return to live under the law of circumcision (verse 30).
As strange as it is in some of its features, this allegory is a key hinge in Paul's argument. It illustrates a use of Scripture in which Paul works backward from his conclusion to construct an argument. At its conclusion it thus summarizes the key of the letter's argument to this point: those who belong to Christ are children of Abraham through the promise and not through the law. With its concluding reference to "freedom," the allegory points ahead to what follows, in which Paul asserts that those who seek circumcision are denying their experience of God and the freedom for which Christ has died (Galatians 5:1-6).

Galatians 4:21-31

Now we must tell the truth Abraham was not some 'story'.Your post in misleading and in error.
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Rebuke Re: Yes. Abraham is an allegory. Paul is saying that he was not real. - 05-29-2018, 10:50 AM

Dear sinner,

Your enthusiasm you promote Jesus by rebuking the nasty unbelievers that sometimes swarm our nice Forum is laudable. However, your post seems not to be your own but just a copied text from a source in the Interwebs. Let us look at your text:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdeomed View Post
Analysis

In Galatians 3-4, Paul uses four appeals to Scripture to support his argument that justification is by faith in Christ Jesus and not by doing the law (3:6-9; 3:10-14; 3:16-18; 4:21-31). Here, in his concluding argument, he addresses those who "desire to be subject to the law" with an elaborate allegory that is unique to Paul and unusual in the New Testament. In doing so he blends scriptural and traditional narrative detail about the two sons of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael (see Genesis 16-17, 21), with symbolic theological reflection related to the distinction of flesh and Spirit that runs through Galatians. Accordingly, Ishmael, as the son of the slave woman, is born "according to the flesh," while Isaac, the son of the free woman, is born "through the promise" (4:23).
Interpreting this story as an allegory, and picking up the argument of Galatians 3:15-17 with its reference to "will" or "covenant," Paul says that these two mothers and their sons symbolize two covenants, one corresponding to Sinai, the law, and slavery; the other corresponding to the heavenly Jerusalem, the promise, and freedom. Paul expands the allegory by linking the theme of barrenness. The barren Sarah is joined to the image of the barren Jerusalem--the earthly barren Jerusalem in exile--and contrasted with the fruitful Jerusalem of promise, the mother of all who are children of the promise (verse 27; see Isaiah 54:1).
Finally, Paul applies this allegorical reading to the current situation. As Isaac was persecuted by Ishmael, "it is now also," the present children of promise are being persecuted by those who are children of slavery and the law (verse 29). Just as Scripture at that time instructed Abraham to "cast out this slave woman with her son" (Genesis 21:10), so now Paul says that the Galatians need to exclude from their midst those who seek to return to live under the law of circumcision (verse 30).
As strange as it is in some of its features, this allegory is a key hinge in Paul's argument. It illustrates a use of Scripture in which Paul works backward from his conclusion to construct an argument. At its conclusion it thus summarizes the key of the letter's argument to this point: those who belong to Christ are children of Abraham through the promise and not through the law. With its concluding reference to "freedom," the allegory points ahead to what follows, in which Paul asserts that those who seek circumcision are denying their experience of God and the freedom for which Christ has died (Galatians 5:1-6).

Galatians 4:21-31

Now we must tell the truth Abraham was not some 'story'.Your post in misleading and in error.
Now, let us look at an Internet source, a commentary:
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Revised Standard Version Bible: Anglicized Edition, copyright © 1989, 1995 National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.
Analysis
In Galatians 3-4, Paul uses four appeals to Scripture to support his argument that justification is by faith in Christ Jesus and not by doing the law (3:6-9; 3:10-14; 3:16-18; 4:21-31). Here, in his concluding argument, he addresses those who "desire to be subject to the law" with an elaborate allegory that is unique to Paul and unusual in the New Testament. In doing so he blends scriptural and traditional narrative detail about the two sons of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael (see Genesis 16-17, 21), with symbolic theological reflection related to the distinction of flesh and Spirit that runs through Galatians. Accordingly, Ishmael, as the son of the slave woman, is born "according to the flesh," while Isaac, the son of the free woman, is born "through the promise" (4:23).

Interpreting this story as an allegory, and picking up the argument of Galatians 3:15-17 with its reference to "will" or "covenant," Paul says that these two mothers and their sons symbolize two covenants, one corresponding to Sinai, the law, and slavery; the other corresponding to the heavenly Jerusalem, the promise, and freedom. Paul expands the allegory by linking the theme of barrenness. The barren Sarah is joined to the image of the barren Jerusalem--the earthly barren Jerusalem in exile--and contrasted with the fruitful Jerusalem of promise, the mother of all who are children of the promise (verse 27; see Isaiah 54:1).

Finally, Paul applies this allegorical reading to the current situation. As Isaac was persecuted by Ishmael, "it is now also," the present children of promise are being persecuted by those who are children of slavery and the law (verse 29). Just as Scripture at that time instructed Abraham to "cast out this slave woman with her son" (Genesis 21:10), so now Paul says that the Galatians need to exclude from their midst those who seek to return to live under the law of circumcision (verse 30).

As strange as it is in some of its features, this allegory is a key hinge in Paul's argument. It illustrates a use of Scripture in which Paul works backward from his conclusion to construct an argument. At its conclusion it thus summarizes the key of the letter's argument to this point: those who belong to Christ are children of Abraham through the promise and not through the law. With its concluding reference to "freedom," the allegory points ahead to what follows, in which Paul asserts that those who seek circumcision are denying their experience of God and the freedom for which Christ has died (Galatians 5:1-6).
It is clear that you are plagiarizing. Please repent and become a Christian. If you continue to steal the intellectual property of others, your destiny will be dismal!

1 Corinthians 6:10
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

I am deeply worried about you and will pray for your soul!


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


2 Kings 18:25 - Am I now come up without the LORD against this place to destroy it? The LORD said to me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.



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Default Re: Yes. Abraham is an allegory. Paul is saying that he was not real. - 07-29-2018, 01:03 PM

It's the NRSV part I noticed there. First of all they think God made some mistakes and they'd need to revise His words. Is that the Revised Version? But hold your horses, next comes RSV with the addition of "Standard" version and now they need a New Revised Standard Version? Come back in a few years and we'll be on the Updated Modified Postmodern Revised Standard Secularist Version NONBINARY EDITION where Jesus is an appropriated Confucius figure based on Julius Caesar's conquest of China with Salome standing in as His girlfriend. We already have The Bible but I suppose if people lack confidence so much they need a written source to agree with them (for validation) as many "versions" as people would eventually be required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harsha Shah View Post
We are still doing RME that is, yes, religious and moral education. We have been reading books that are telling how the old Testament is not literal but is is an allegory.

Jainism must follow a similar path in deference to views one should otherwise disagree with. Of course we know that Abraham was a real historical figure, originally married to Sarai and so on. And obviously a detail from history could be used in writing an allegory. It could be specific or general. Jesus used the general fact of sowing seeds to see life produced, something which happens frequently throughout history, to compare different responses in actual lives upon hearing the Gospel.

Over in India, by way of contrast, many sowers seem to have sown many seeds and yet the effects on resulting lives among those hearing this or that doctrine (there's thousands) appears uniformly calamitous. And let's face it, when hallucinating hippies pour in for "enlightenment" or fat gurus flood out to disseminate "knowledge" we can assume it's some pretty far out stuff.

So for OP, How do Brahma and Saraswati fare in the allegory stakes? Are they empty symbols too? If so how come there's any life at all?
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Default Re: Yes. Abraham is an allegory. Paul is saying that he was not real. - 07-29-2018, 02:00 PM

We here at Landover Baptist Church are fortunate to use only one Bible, King James 1611, and receive teaching from only one source, Pastor Zeke and his excellent staff of preachers. I've never heard the word "allegory" until it came up here.

Why would anyone take something simple, if you sin you will go to hell when you die, and make it complicated with words like "allegory"?


Isaiah 24:1-3 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty (2)...as the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. (3) The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken his word.
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Default Re: Yes. Abraham is an allegory. Paul is saying that he was not real. - 07-29-2018, 11:22 PM

Yes, it saddens me to see how when people reject The Bible the standards they adopt are so bereft of meaning. For example I was horrified enough to learn that transvestites in India regard themselves as re-incarnate dance pixies and then read only last week about a "scientist" who underwent gender "reassignment" to demonstrate that men should compete with women in athletics?

CONTAINS DISTURBING GRAPHIC remove infants before opening

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including


Quote:
PORTLAND, OREGON, AND PHOENIX—Joanna Harper swallowed a few pills in late August 2004, a day after running in the Hood to Coast relay race between Oregon's highest mountain and the Pacific Ocean. They delivered a small dose of estrogen and a testosterone blocker and set in motion changes that Harper, who was designated male at birth and raised as a boy, had imagined since childhood. Harper's timing was deliberate—the 47-year-old nationally ranked runner wanted one more race before disrupting her hormones because she knew she'd never run as fast again. etc.

All completely opposed to Biblical teaching, they'd even sucked in the International Olympic Committee!

Quote:
1) Transgender guidelines

A. Since the 2003 Stockholm Consensus on Sex Reassignment in Sports, there has been a growing recognition of the importance of autonomy of gender identity in society, as reflected in the laws of many jurisdictions worldwide.

B. There are also, however, jurisdictions where autonomy of gender identity is not recognised in law at all.

C. It is necessary to ensure insofar as possible that trans athletes are not excluded from the opportunity to participate in sporting competition.

D. The overriding sporting objective is and remains the guarantee of fair competition..





When these "allegories" take off, as seems to have happened in India not to mention other locations adopting screeching cat simulators as an allegory for music, the sky's the limit.

Then comes HELL. FOREVER!
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