[Meek and Humble]

Hey, so on my recent missionary tour into the unsaved darkness of the greater Des Moines area, I came across two very kind and smartly dressed men. They looked fairly Christian to me, so I struck up a conversation with them, and they were nice enough to offer me a magazine called the Watch Tower. They didn't read the King James Bible though, just something called the New World Translation.

Anyway, they brought up some ideas to me that were pretty troubling. I've always prided myself on being a Bible-alone believer, and I realize now there's very little evidence in the Bible to suggest that Jesus is actually God!

Look at John 14:28 for example. Jesus says, "My Father is greater than I."

In Philippians 2:9 it says of Jesus, "God also hath highly exalted him". How could God exalt Jesus if Jesus is God and therefore already the highest level possible?

Sure, Jesus is called the son of God, but so are many other people. Even Adam is - Luke 3:38 "Adam, which was the son of God."

God is uncreated, but the Bible says Jesus is a creation, albeit the firstborn of creation (Colossians 1:15).

Micah 5:2 says that Jesus' origins are from ancient times, but God doesn't have an origin, he's eternal.

[Dr. Isaiah Jones]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the men you met were members of Jehova's cult. I'd stay clear of those demon-worshipers if I were you.

It is my understanding that Jesus is God's earthly form. When He says His father is greater than Him he most likely means that His heavenly form is greater than His earthly form.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

As for Jesus being THE son of God I'd say the evidence is overwhelming. The Holy Ghost impregnated Mary with Himself through divine in vitro fertilization, possibly using special DNA from outside the space time continuum.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

[John Creeser]

Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher

Hey, so on my recent missionary tour into the unsaved darkness of the greater Des Moines area, I came across two very kind and smartly dressed men. They looked fairly Christian to me, so I struck up a conversation with them, and they were nice enough to offer me a magazine called the Watch Tower. They didn't read the King James Bible though, just something called the New World Translation.

Anyway, they brought up some ideas to me that were pretty troubling. I've always prided myself on being a Bible-alone believer, and I realize now there's very little evidence in the Bible to suggest that Jesus is actually God!

Look at John 14:28 for example. Jesus says, "My Father is greater than I."



In Philippians 2:9 it says of Jesus, "God also hath highly exalted him". How could God exalt Jesus if Jesus is God and therefore already the highest level possible?

Sure, Jesus is called the son of God, but so are many other people. Even Adam is - Luke 3:38 "Adam, which was the son of God."

God is uncreated, but the Bible says Jesus is a creation, albeit the firstborn of creation (Colossians 1:15).

Micah 5:2 says that Jesus' origins are from ancient times, but God doesn't have an origin, he's eternal.

Brother Basher - you raise some disturbing points. I always wondered why Jesus yelled out in Matthew 27:45-46. Surely He wasn't talking to Himself?

[Dr Laurence Niles]

It is my understanding that Jesus is God's earthly form. When He says His father is greater than Him he most likely means that His heavenly form is greater than His earthly form.

That makes perfect sense. Optimus Prime's lorry form is nowhere near as powerful as his robot form.

I imagine it holds true for Jesus and God, too.

I always wondered why Jesus yelled out in Matthew 27:45-46. Surely He wasn't talking to Himself?

I remember once yelling "Oh God; why did you do that?" but there was a transition from addressing God to then addressing myself.

YIC

[Meek and Humble]

Originally Posted by Dr. Isaiah Jones

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the men you met were members of Jehova's cult. I'd stay clear of those demon-worshipers if I were you.

It is my understanding that Jesus is God's earthly form. When He says His father is greater than Him he most likely means that His heavenly form is greater than His earthly form.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

As for Jesus being THE son of God I'd say the evidence is overwhelming. The Holy Ghost impregnated Mary with Himself through divine in vitro fertilization, possibly using special DNA from outside the space time continuum.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Yes, well we discussed some of this too.

In Matthew 20:23, Jesus says he doesn't have all power. "But to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father."

Jesus also seems to deny being God in Matthew 19:17: "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

It seems son of God is a term used for Angels. I mean, how can God be his own father? Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

I mean, how do you explain that Jesus is sitting at God's right hand in heaven if Jesus is God? Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God

[Dr. Isaiah Jones]

Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher

Yes, well we discussed some of this too.

In Matthew 20:23, Jesus says he doesn't have all power. "But to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father."

Jesus also seems to deny being God in Matthew 19:17: "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

It seems son of God is a term used for Angels. I mean, how can God be his own father? Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

I mean, how do you explain that Jesus is sitting at God's right hand in heaven if Jesus is God? Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God

We are all the children of God according to Galatians 3:26 but it is also clear that Jesus was of divine origin; our one and only Lord and Savior.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You must also remember that God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, and as such He has the power to do whatever He pleases. If He so wishes to be His own father then He has the power to make that a reality.

Revelation 1:8 *I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

[Paragon of virtue]

It's a very interesting topic for me. In the spirit of this particular church I'd say let us accept it and rejoice in it because the Bible says it's so and leave it at that. I do believe in the Trinity and I do believe that Jesus is Lord! The hardest part is that we are ignorant finite beings trying to understand an infinite God. I'm just happy that he loves us!

[Meek and Humble]

Originally Posted by Dr. Isaiah Jones

I find this very intriguing. I will need to sit down in my prayer closet and think about this for a while but I'm sure Jesus had a very good reason for being such a doublethinker.



We are all the children of God according to Galatians 3:26 but it is also clear that Jesus was of divine origin; our one and only Lord and Savior.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You must also remember that God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, and as such He has the power to do whatever He pleases. If He so wishes to be His own father then He has the power to make that a reality.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

I just don't understand why Jesus keeps saying He's God's Son but never just says He's God?

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

I mean, was God praying to himself here? Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

I have another bone here too. Why don't we call God by His real name? The King James Version changes the text to say "the Lord", when it should say Jehovah! Aren't we blaspheming by changing scripture? Just look at Isaiah 42:8.

God WANTS us to know Him by His real name, right? Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

[BelieverInGod]

I know I'm a mere woman, but this is how it was explained to me.

Think of God as an egg.

Now there's three parts to the egg, the shell, the yolk and the white just as there are three parts to God, God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Although all three parts of the egg are separate, they all come together to make an egg. The same goes with God, although God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are separate parts, they all come together as God.

I know it's not really Biblical, but it helped me make sense of the confusion.

[Dr. Isaiah Jones]

Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher

I just don't understand why Jesus keeps saying He's God's Son but never just says He's God?

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

I mean, was God praying to himself here? Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

I have another bone here too. Why don't we call God by His real name? The King James Version changes the text to say "the Lord", when it should say Jehovah! Aren't we blaspheming by changing scripture? Just look at Isaiah 42:8.

God WANTS us to know Him by His real name, right? Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

God sure moves in mysterious ways. In a different passage He states that His name is Jealous.

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

[Capt. Aaron Portway]

Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher

Hey, so on my recent missionary tour into the unsaved darkness of the greater Des Moines area, I came across two very kind and smartly dressed men. They looked fairly Christian to me, so I struck up a conversation with them, and they were nice enough to offer me a magazine called the Watch Tower. They didn't read the King James Bible though, just something called the New World Translation.

Anyway, they brought up some ideas to me that were pretty troubling. I've always prided myself on being a Bible-alone believer, and I realize now there's very little evidence in the Bible to suggest that Jesus is actually God!

Look at John 14:28 for example. Jesus says, "My Father is greater than I."

In Philippians 2:9 it says of Jesus, "God also hath highly exalted him". How could God exalt Jesus if Jesus is God and therefore already the highest level possible?

Sure, Jesus is called the son of God, but so are many other people. Even Adam is - Luke 3:38 "Adam, which was the son of God."

God is uncreated, but the Bible says Jesus is a creation, albeit the firstborn of creation (Colossians 1:15).

Micah 5:2 says that Jesus' origins are from ancient times, but God doesn't have an origin, he's eternal.

Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher

Yes, well we discussed some of this too.

In Matthew 20:23, Jesus says he doesn't have all power. "But to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father."

Jesus also seems to deny being God in Matthew 19:17: "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

It seems son of God is a term used for Angels. I mean, how can God be his own father? Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

I mean, how do you explain that Jesus is sitting at God's right hand in heaven if Jesus is God? Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God

Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher

I just don't understand why Jesus keeps saying He's God's Son but never just says He's God?

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

I mean, was God praying to himself here? Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

I have another bone here too. Why don't we call God by His real name? The King James Version changes the text to say "the Lord", when it should say Jehovah! Aren't we blaspheming by changing scripture? Just look at Isaiah 42:8.

God WANTS us to know Him by His real name, right? Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

Brother, I thought you were more on the ball, seriously. Jesus is God and vice versa. What you're doing is Bible INTERPRETATION, pure and simple. Read this verse if you don't believe me.

Originally Posted by God in the KJV1611

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

So quit whining and start praising. I really didn't need this this weekend, a True Christian™ Brother questioning God's wisdom. I'm supposed to fly to Daytona to watch the 500 Sunday after church, and I don't need this stuff distracting me.

Get this crap figured out quick!

[Pastor Isaac Peters]

Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher

I just don't understand why Jesus keeps saying He's God's Son but never just says He's God?

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

I mean, was God praying to himself here? Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

I have another bone here too. Why don't we call God by His real name? The King James Version changes the text to say "the Lord", when it should say Jehovah! Aren't we blaspheming by changing scripture? Just look at Isaiah 42:8.

God WANTS us to know Him by His real name, right? Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

Jesus used the sacred name of God to refer to Himself, and His listeners knew exactly what He meant:

John 8:57-59: Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

[Meek and Humble]

Originally Posted by BelieverInGod

I know I'm a mere woman, but this is how it was explained to me.

Think of God as an egg.

Now there's three parts to the egg, the shell, the yolk and the white just as there are three parts to God, God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Although all three parts of the egg are separate, they all come together to make an egg. The same goes with God, although God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are separate parts, they all come together as God.

I know it's not really Biblical, but it helped me make sense of the confusion.

But sister, it doesn't make any sense at all! I mean, doesn't the Bible say Jehovah is only one?

Deuteronomy 6:4 The Lord our God is one Lord

Psalm 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Galatians 3:20 God is one.

The more I think about it, the more it seems that this whole trinity thing is a doctrine of men!!!

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Could I be touching the unclean thing???

[Meek and Humble]

Originally Posted by Dr. Isaiah Jones

God sure moves in mysterious ways. In a different passage He states that His name is Jealous.

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Yes, Jehovah is jealous, and He's jealous of anyone else but Him ALONE being called God Almighty! The more I'm studying this watchtower, the more I'm starting to distrust everything Landover taught me. Did you know Jesus wasn't even born on December 25th?

Luke 2:3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

You really think Caesar would have made everyone travel around the empire in the middle of winter?

Luke 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

Shepherds don't stay out all night in winter!

Just read Exodus 32:5-7. Jehovah is offended if we worship Him in a way He did not intend! So why are we celebrating Christmas if the Bible doesn't tell you to???

[Jedediah]

Stay away from my family.

[Samuel Coleridge]

Well, yes of course Jesus was not the same as God. Jesus was a great prophet and teacher.

He was not however God. Any Unitarian knows that.

Mark 10:17-18 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

[Levi Jones]

You're a fool if you can't accept the Trinity. Every Christian since Jesus' time has accepted the Trinity.

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

[BelieverInGod]

Originally Posted by Heathen_Basher

Yes, Jehovah is jealous, and He's jealous of anyone else but Him ALONE being called God Almighty! The more I'm studying this watchtower, the more I'm starting to distrust everything Landover taught me. Did you know Jesus wasn't even born on December 25th?

How did JW's get through the gates?!?!?!?!

Someone needs to check into the security!

Luke 2:3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

You really think Caesar would have made everyone travel around the empire in the middle of winter?

In Israel? Yeah, I think travel would actually be nicer in December. Would you rather visit Arizona in December or July?

Luke 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

Shepherds don't stay out all night in winter!

Why would shepherds not stay out with their sheep? What else would they do? Just leave them out there for wolves, jackals and feral dogs to feast on?

Just read Exodus 32:5-7. Jehovah is offended if we worship Him in a way He did not intend! So why are we celebrating Christmas if the Bible doesn't tell you to???

So your whole crisis of faith is based on Christmas?

[Pim Pendergast]

So far you've neglected to mention John 1:1.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This is what the real Bible, the 1611 KJV says. The NWT deliberately mistranslates this verse so that it reads "the Word was a god." The Jehovah's Twitnesses changed the KJV because it didn't fit in with their theology. You're not having doubts about the reliability of the KJV are you?

[Mary Etheldreda]

Brother Heathen_Basher, when the Adversary whispers sweet lies into my ears and my flesh is tempted to ask questions, I simply remember God's Circle of Spiritual Life:

Remember, your flesh may feel doubt, but you don't have to let the devil steal your confidence. Don't give him the chance. Instead, just rejoice in God's goodness. Don't ask questions, don't read the Watchtower, don't analyze details in various Bible Verses. Simply Trust God.