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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 09-17-2014, 11:52 PM

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Originally Posted by Pastor Isaac Peters View Post
If their arguments are based on free exercise of religion and their right to follow the Bible, they do not have to concern themselves with slippery-slope arguments. God's Law allows some things but forbids some other things that to the world look similar; in fact, God's Law can look pretty arbitrary from a worldly perspective. The reason, of course, is that the Lord most high is not bound by human conceptions of logic; if He were, He would not be omnipotent. Secular courts recognize this and accept that a religious belief does not have to "make sense" as the world understands it, but just has to be sincerely held. If anyone tries to set up a slippery-slope argument, the surest way to prove that person wrong is to say that you are exercising your religious right to follow the Bible as it is and to give direct quotations of what the Holy Bible actually has to say about the various subjects. (In that regard, you do know which Bible verses forbid pedophilia, right?)
Interesting, I would personally put that to the test in hopes that judges would appeal to a higher power. Jesus demonstrated Himself as not only rational but a master logician. I have a problem with accepting something as true solely on the basis of an emotional response as one may claim in all sincerity. I think the difference between what you had shared and what others claim is in part because someone with a sincere belief relies on something outside the Bible, or even unto an interpretation of the Scripture, but I think you are pointing to the Scripture and saying upholding it in sincerity.

Lastly, I think if you find anything that IS illogical in the Bible that that would be an invitation to deepen our understanding of Logic and How it pertains to Scripture. For Example, Jesus has two natures, both divine and human as explained in the Hypostatic Union. On its face it does appear illogical, however, deeper study and understanding will ultimately correct us, and we will no longer make the statement that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. That is an illogical statement. But Logic will help guide us in saying, Jesus is Authentically God and Authentically man which is Logically True.

Regarding the Omnipotent argument, I find it rather similar to the question, "Can God make a square circle."

As for religion being defined in the constitution I'm going to research that in the coming week unless someone wants to save me some leg work? Lastly, I'm only aware of principals, concepts and truths of the Bible that would oppose Pedophile, if there is a direct verse, please by all means share it Pastor.

Awesome discussion,

God bless
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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 09-18-2014, 02:27 AM

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Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Yes Pastor, when I read the above in Context I am reminded of the arguments that Polygamist make, that apart of the then foreign relations of conquered lands, conquered kings gave their daughters to the Conquering King in part to seal a treaty. I find resemblance to the demands of certain Muslim demands too. On the same basis I would ask a Polygamist whether they are looking to provide Equal Status for those wanting to engage in Incest or even Pedophile?
Of course the advocate of sodomite marriage would dismiss the slippery slope arguments pertaining to incest (claiming there is no offense against justice if there are two - or more - consenting adults) and pedophilia (since the child is not a consenting adult, and therefore unable to maturely enter a legal contract of sorts). But we know their real motivation - they seek to ridicule and torment the Sweet Redeemer by rubbing their filthy back doors in His Glorious Face. Being blessed (and cursed?) to omnipresence, the Lord no doubt is forced to see the sloppy, disgusting, grunt-fests of two - or more - sodomites as they taunt Him for the sheer hope of making Him weep.

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And I agree with you Pastor Isaac Peters, there is no limit to the state of Depravity of an unregenerate man. However, homosexuals having seem to identified themselves as a homosexual and of a community where they find much pride, I do not think that most will accept others outside themselves and defend the other communities even as such polygamist. The Homosexual representatives are more than likely not going to make a case for equal status in front of the Supreme Court for all, but instead for only one group, I don't think they would have a chance in America at this point of its depravity with regard to success. Perhaps if they pushed the issue further they may eventually set the stage for someone worse than Obama to take office.
Indeed. The cry of "equal marriage" ends only with sodomy for these sodomites, as it once ended with race for the negro. I pray every day that equality will not reach other factions of currently marginalized groups, as that clearly goes against the Divine Design of the Creator (Isaiah 10:15; Jeremiah 18:6; Romans 9:19-22; 2 Timothy 2:20).

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I think that there needs to be a clear distinction made, is group b looking for equal status as group a, and therefore willing to argue for equal status for all groups following, c, d, e? Or are they looking for special privilege or status of only one group?
I think we've well established the fact that sodomites are incapable of recognizing the well-being, or lack thereof, of those who are not eager to bend over and grab their own ankles, if you know what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Lastly, it is obvious that these groups have rejected what is Endowed by their Creator" as they must appeal to man and cannot appeal to the Almighty in Court or Even Natural Law. Saying there is a Gay Gene ect, I ask why wouldn't a witty Lawyer jump on it to introduce Natural Law. I dunno as I am not a Lawyer, but I would suspect that the Lawyer should be a believer and stand for not only our Principals and values, but to Convict the Conscience of America, the way Pastors used to do.
I laugh at how conveniently they've abandoned this idea that science would redeem their disgusting habits, even so far as suggesting sexuality isn't binary, and instead decided to embrace the concept of marriage solely within the context of freedom of choice! As if that freedom isn't anything but hidden shackles for the youth of a nation, being forced to recognize non conventional partnerships as equally valid so long as they are entered into freely by consenting adults. I don't envy them the day they'll attempt their so-called rational, secular arguments against the LORD's Divine Justice (Ecclesiastes 12:13)!

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Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
On another note, I read in the last day that there are two instances where Muslims are being denied Sharia law, and I ask on what grounds? I still do not understand how the Constitution defines Religion, and at the same time rejects the then dominant religion of the drafters in various ways, such as having the Ten Commandments in the Court room. I would think that one would need to define it with respect to its context and the author in order to understand the authors meaning. Therefore, arguments that clearly violate the Holy Law or even Natural Law for that matter should be seriously questioned as whether they even fit into the definition of Religion, especially of what is means to say "Their Creator." I was hoping someone could elaborate on this?

Enjoy
I'm not familiar with politics, and I don't know what the Constitution says, but I know what the Holy Bible says. I don't much care to put stock in the idea of keeping to the spirit of what the authors themselves thought because that opens a whole can of worms with regard to the argument of most of them being deists at best, perhaps even atheists, and openly hostile against the idea of coupling religion with politics. I think we should simply continue lobbying for Christian ideals in Congress, maintaining the fear of God in schools, and stamping out atheistic rebellion until most of our laws reflect a theological approach, then talk of ratifying the Constitution ought to go down more easily.


Hello, my name is Mary. I hope to fellowship with you! That is, unless you don't listen to church authority (Deuteronomy 17:12); are a witch (Exodus 22:17); are a homosexual (Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:24-32); or fortuneteller (Leviticus 20:27) or a snotty kid who hits their dad (Exodus 21:15); or curses their parents (Proverbs 20:20; Leviticus 20:9); an adulterer (Leviticus 20:10); a non-Christian (Exodus 22:19; Deuteronomy 13:7-12; Deuteronomy 17:2-5;Romans 1:24-32); an atheist (2 Chronicles 15:12-13); or false prophet (Zechariah 13:3); from the town of one who worships another, false god (Deuteronomy 13:13-19); were a non-virgin bride (Deuteronomy 22:20-21); or blasphemer (Leviticus 24:10-16), as God calls for your execution and will no doubt send you to Hell, and I have no interest developing a friendship with the Spiritually Walking Dead.

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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 09-18-2014, 02:35 AM

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Originally Posted by Mary Etheldreda View Post
Of course the advocate of sodomite marriage would dismiss the slippery slope arguments pertaining to incest (claiming there is no offense against justice if there are two - or more - consenting adults) and pedophilia (since the child is not a consenting adult, and therefore unable to maturely enter a legal contract of sorts).
Very nice Mary,

What about the reversal of the argument? Are they going to deny various sciences regarding social statistics? The lack of the male role model or two parents resulting in higher crime rates, increased burden on society through financial support, ect? I believe the family is the last stand pertaining to solidarity, and why I personally was so against public schools in the upbringing my offspring. I don't want secular ideology brainwashing my children.

I'd hope that whatever lawyer is defending Traditional Marriage, is himself a born again believer. If cases like this are going to trial, and we are made aware of them, we should pray for them.

God bless
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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 09-18-2014, 03:00 AM

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Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Very nice Mary,

What about the reversal of the argument? Are they going to deny various sciences regarding social statistics? The lack of the male role model or two parents resulting in higher crime rates, increased burden on society through financial support, ect? I believe the family is the last stand pertaining to solidarity, and why I personally was so against public schools in the upbringing my offspring. I don't want secular ideology brainwashing my children.

I'd hope that whatever lawyer is defending Traditional Marriage, is himself a born again believer. If cases like this are going to trial, and we are made aware of them, we should pray for them.

God bless
I hope that whatever lawyer is defending Traditional Marriage is a Born Again Believer, too, because he'll need the power of the Holy Ghost to set his tongue aflame when advocates of sodomy use their God-mocking statistics and amoral facts to argue the studies made famous by God's own servant Paul Cameron have been debunked a long time ago. But you are correct friend, it makes no difference to them from whence they get their material - objective evidence or meth-inspired hallucinations - so long as they can stick their thumbs up at the Holy King of Kings.


Hello, my name is Mary. I hope to fellowship with you! That is, unless you don't listen to church authority (Deuteronomy 17:12); are a witch (Exodus 22:17); are a homosexual (Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:24-32); or fortuneteller (Leviticus 20:27) or a snotty kid who hits their dad (Exodus 21:15); or curses their parents (Proverbs 20:20; Leviticus 20:9); an adulterer (Leviticus 20:10); a non-Christian (Exodus 22:19; Deuteronomy 13:7-12; Deuteronomy 17:2-5;Romans 1:24-32); an atheist (2 Chronicles 15:12-13); or false prophet (Zechariah 13:3); from the town of one who worships another, false god (Deuteronomy 13:13-19); were a non-virgin bride (Deuteronomy 22:20-21); or blasphemer (Leviticus 24:10-16), as God calls for your execution and will no doubt send you to Hell, and I have no interest developing a friendship with the Spiritually Walking Dead.

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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 09-18-2014, 03:30 AM

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... Jesus demonstrated Himself as not only rational but a master logician. I have a problem with accepting something as true solely on the basis of an emotional response as one may claim in all sincerity. I think the difference between what you had shared and what others claim is in part because someone with a sincere belief relies on something outside the Bible, or even unto an interpretation of the Scripture, but I think you are pointing to the Scripture and saying upholding it in sincerity.

Lastly, I think if you find anything that IS illogical in the Bible that that would be an invitation to deepen our understanding of Logic and How it pertains to Scripture... But Logic will help guide us in saying, Jesus is Authentically God and Authentically man which is Logically True.

Regarding the Omnipotent argument, I find it rather similar to the question, "Can God make a square circle."
Logic is so alluring, isn't it? I am nowadays very suspicious when it comes to using classical logic as a well-deserved weapon against heathens and atheists. I must agree with our pastor that God is beyond logic and in some cases also beyond reason. If we start defending His position with logic we are not only patronizing Him but also opening the chasm of potential fallacies that can be eventually used against us, for Satan. I demonstrate only a few points here:

1. Genesis 1:1
Beyond all logic. Logic says that nothing can come out of nothing. Yet God irrevocably demonstrates Creation ex nihilo. It is beyond logic. If we say it is logical then the ridiculous Big Bang can be defended by the same argument by replacing "God" with "Quantum fluctuations". That is NOT another name for God because it lacks sentience, awesomeness and direct interaction with us men in history. It is deism at best. But if we go beyond logic and accept that logical rules only apply to our understanding, we shall have a much more realistic view on God.

2. Causality is broken with God.
We are used to trusting causality in real life. Certain events (jumping off a roof) lead to predictable consequences. Not so with God and supernatural intervention. If we follow logic, miracles become violations of the rules, whereas we KNOW that the supernatural is the REAL state of being and the materialistic laws just a state of the Fallen world.

3. Jesus
Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
With secular logic this is a fallacious argument. It is a false dilemma (I'm only doing this as a demonstration, Ladies, and I do not really think like this, sorry!). In the secular world things are not black and white but murky. Obviously, there are many alternatives: following Jesus by 13%, or believing almost everything except of slaying His enemies before Him (Luke 19:27). There are more alternatives than two on earth but that logic does not count for God. He creates logic and natural laws but is not bound by them.

4. Generalizations
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Again, in the secular world this is nonsense. If I accidentally disobey the speed limit I'm not guilty of sodomy, am I? This is the hasty generalization fallacy when applied between humans. Jesus disagrees. Salvation and sin come in quanta. 100% or 0%. If you are guilty of withholding a dime of your income tax you're a murderer. That is what God requires. Totality beyond logic!

5. Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
Again, a generalization and ad hominem in the secular world. Not defensible by logic. For logic, a person could do charity or save children from a burning house and do a good thing. God disagrees, an atheist can do no good. Everything becomes evil and corrupted. It is a fallacy if we follow logic but God doesn't. That makes Him God.

Accept it. Repent. Get a baptism. Be saved. I enjoy these conversations and would like continue them in Heaven. As for now, I'm worried for your attachment to logic and defending an entity that really needs no defending. I'm praying for you, friend!


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 09-18-2014, 07:33 AM

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Originally Posted by Elmer G. White View Post
I must agree with our pastor that God is beyond logic and in some cases also beyond reason. If we start defending His position with logic we are not only patronizing Him but also opening the chasm of potential fallacies that can be eventually used against us, for Satan. I demonstrate only a few points here:

1. Genesis 1:1
Beyond all logic. Logic says that nothing can come out of nothing. Yet God irrevocably demonstrates Creation ex nihilo. It is beyond logic. If we say it is logical then the ridiculous Big Bang can be defended by the same argument by replacing "God" with "Quantum fluctuations". That is NOT another name for God because it lacks sentience, awesomeness and direct interaction with us men in history. It is deism at best. But if we go beyond logic and accept that logical rules only apply to our understanding, we shall have a much more realistic view on God.

2. Causality is broken with God.
We are used to trusting causality in real life. Certain events (jumping off a roof) lead to predictable consequences. Not so with God and supernatural intervention. If we follow logic, miracles become violations of the rules, whereas we KNOW that the supernatural is the REAL state of being and the materialistic laws just a state of the Fallen world.
I had to go back and read what I wrote, as I hadn't meant that I disagree. I tread cautiously in this area, for many Charismatics open the door to a lot of practices by first convincing people that God, Jesus is not rational and logical, and if you argue with them, they come back and say that you're putting God in a box.

I agree with the statement by Pastor Isaac Peters, and as reiterated by you, Elmer. Creation ex nihilo, is beyond logic. It is beyond an unbelievers understanding, and I would say that miracles do become violations of rules, if only an act against science in and of itself, or how we simply just understand nature. Secularist can take logical steps up to Creation ex nihilo by observing Thermodynamics, which will eventually lead another to quite an obstacle on the topic of origination, I'd think, but I'm not an scientist.

Quote:
Accept it. Repent. Get a baptism. Be saved. I enjoy these conversations and would like continue them in Heaven. As for now, I'm worried for your attachment to logic and defending an entity that really needs no defending. I'm praying for you, friend!
Done, Done, Done, Done, I also enjoy our conversations, and would like to continue them, the topics there will be quite different I'm sure, because I can't imagine apologetics will actually exist in Heaven. Praying for you too friend, and thank you for the edification.



God bless
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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 09-18-2014, 08:02 AM

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Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Jesus demonstrated Himself as not only rational but a master logician. I have a problem with accepting something as true solely on the basis of an emotional response as one may claim in all sincerity. I think the difference between what you had shared and what others claim is in part because someone with a sincere belief relies on something outside the Bible, or even unto an interpretation of the Scripture, but I think you are pointing to the Scripture and saying upholding it in sincerity.
Lastly, I think if you find anything that IS illogical in the Bible that that would be an invitation to deepen our understanding of Logic and How it pertains to Scripture.
Regarding the Omnipotent argument, I find it rather similar to the question, "Can God make a square circle."
I originally replied to this part of your response. I agree that sincere belief can be based on extra-scriptural "evidence" and that scientific data when properly examined against the background of the Bible can be used to assist the conversion of unbelievers. I have to disagree with "deepening the understanding of logic", however. Whenever you start applying logic to Scripture, the moment arrives when logic makes Scripture irrational and flawed, for instance, in the passages I quoted. It is a paradox.

We can look at the world and see how the masts and sails of a ship appear from beyond the horizon before the hull and ponder that according to the evidence of our senses and common sense the Earth is round. We can look at the attempts to prove logically, linguistically or with exegetics that the world view of the Bible is one of a round earth and decide that this probabilistic interpretation is adequate. Or we can look at the Bible and the actual four corners (Isaiah 11:12) and looking at all the kingdoms of the world from a high point (Luke 4:5) and see that in the world of the Bible the earth is not round but flat. And accept it. A paradox. Ridiculous from the viewpoints of science and logic. Illogical. Beyond logic.

You can be sincere but that is no defense if you oppose God.


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I agree with the statement by Pastor Isaac Peters, and as reiterated by you, Elmer. Creation ex nihilo, is beyond logic. It is beyond unbelievers totally at this point, and I would point out that miracles do become violations of rules, if only an act against science in and of itself, or how we simply just understand nature.
I would like to expand this. As Creation is the pivotal moment, the beginning of time and place, it affects all the other aspects of Spirituality, as well. When the world is Created from beyond the reach of logic, we can never reach True Faith™ by logic. At the ultimate moment of re-birth in Jesus Christ it is always an obstacle. 100% or 0%. 99.999999999%= 0%.

I was a bit vain and I expected that you'd notice the connections of my earlier post to 1 Corinthians...

1st Corinthians 1:23-27
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


This is pivotal.
1. The foolish thing, the illogical, the ridiculous, opposed to science, the fallacious, contrary to common sense. We must choose that when Jesus asks for it.
2. The weakness, the sacrifice, voluntary temporary death on the Cross. Salvation.


Yours in Christ,

Elmer


2 Kings 18:25 - Am I now come up without the LORD against this place to destroy it? The LORD said to me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.



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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 09-18-2014, 08:13 AM

Thank you for taking the time to write your response Elmer. You have articulated through much, as I was lacking. I loved the way you explained the ship at sail. I am thankful for our fellowship, as you teach and edify me in the word of God.

Much love here,

God bless, and G'nite
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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 09-18-2014, 10:46 AM

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Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Thank you for taking the time to write your response Elmer. You have articulated through much, as I was lacking. I loved the way you explained the ship at sail. I am thankful for our fellowship, as you teach and edify me in the word of God.

Much love here,
Mr Calvinist, I do not wish to accuse you of unnatural practices, so I will just ask: you do know that Elmer is a man's name, don't you?


Vaccinated by the love of Jesus!!!
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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 09-18-2014, 09:47 PM

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Originally Posted by Joanna Lytton-Vasey View Post
Mr Calvinist, I do not wish to accuse you of unnatural practices, so I will just ask: you do know that Elmer is a man's name, don't you?
And it is good that you do not wish to accuse me of such unnatural practices. Because I do not acknowledge unnatural acts as an example of Love. If I do not show brotherly love, I'd think that I'd be guilty of letting another redefine it. I was merely speaking as a brother in Christ, in which Elmer demonstrated by His love for God's word, and then in sharing it with me.
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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 10-27-2014, 01:01 AM

Secular argument #15 - People don't like homos. Even homos don't like homos. Homos can't stand homos long enough to stick around after molesting each-other. Morality is an instinctual thing - if no one likes homos, why should homos be catered to? Why's homo marriage such a big deal? They're around 2 percent of the population, and few of them are even interested in having a serious marriage. Homo marriage isn't even important to homos, let alone everyone else!
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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 10-27-2014, 04:55 AM

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Secular argument #15 - People don't like homos. Even homos don't like homos. Homos can't stand homos long enough to stick around after molesting each-other. Morality is an instinctual thing - if no one likes homos, why should homos be catered to? Why's homo marriage such a big deal? They're around 2 percent of the population, and few of them are even interested in having a serious marriage. Homo marriage isn't even important to homos, let alone everyone else!
Commendably sound argument there. Good job!


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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 10-28-2014, 05:29 AM

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...Jesus reiterated these Scriptures when the "Left" and "Right" Hillel and Shammai tried to entrap Him.
Damn joos.




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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 10-31-2014, 08:07 PM

As Pastor Isaac Peters mentioned earlier, civil rights are in limited supply, and this heterosexual Kansas couple understands that.

Phil Unruh is an attorney in Kansas, and he agrees that giving rights to one group endangers the rights of another:

Quote:
"And we feel married people have rights too and we want to speak up for our rights as married people. And we are concerned that a decision will be made and if a decision is going to be made we want to have our day in court as well.”
As Mr. Unruh explains, gay marriage is essentially an issue of homosexual infringement upon heterosexual property rights:

Quote:
“We’re not sure what marriage means at this point and time. It meant what our constitution says it meant, since the beginning of civilization, now we don’t have a definition at all…If the Kansas City District Court finds our constitution amendment defining marriage is unconstitutional, I think, a decision that changes the word from meaning something to meaning nothing affects my rights, I think I have the right for it to stay the same.”

“We don’t want to have our word extended to include their relationship. We don’t want to share the word that we use for our relationship with theirs that’s deeply disturbing to me and my wife..."
You see, heterosexuals are harmed by gay marriage because it means they have to share words with gays that belong to exclusively to straight people.

Of course, the liberal judges in Kansas have told the Unruhs they cannot join the case, and right this minute a hearing is underway in a Kansas City courthouse where the Unruh's property is being seized by the government without due process!

I weep for my country!



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Default Re: Secular Arguments Against Gay Marriage: Let's Make History - 11-05-2014, 09:32 PM

I have looked in the issue in my thread defeating homers with their own "logic", as we all know, true logic comes from God, Jesus and the Bible. You can read about it her http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=94602


1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God
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