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My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 06:54 PM
Hi. I'm what's generally known around here as "unsaved scum", and I've written down some of my thoughts on God and religion in general. I was wondering what you might have to say about it, as judging by the interesting people around here, it should give rise to some fascinating responses. Thank you, and here it is:
"I consider myself agnostic. That's agnostic, NOT atheistic. I believe that the existence of a higher power, a deity, a god, a 4D being or whatever, such an entity would be entirely beyond human perception, and thus it's impossible to know with absolute certainty - at the very least, until our technology advances a sh*tload further than it is now - whether or not such an entity does or does not exist. Even if such an entity tried to make itself known to us, we humans, with our limited powers of perception and cynical nature, would never recognise a manifestation of a higher power for what it was. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that no such power exists, as I've never seen evidence of it, and I believe only in what can be backed up with scientific evidence; in other words, I believe that existence/reality/consciousness is simply the result of a series of random coincidences. The Big Bang theory and evolutionism, in other words.
What I am convinced of, however, is that should a higher power exist, it likely will bear virtually no similarity to the deities portrayed in human culture, partly for the reasons mentioned previously, and partly due to any perception of a higher being which may once have existed having undoubtedly been defiled beyond recognition by milenia of mistranslation, misconception and manipulation for use as religious dogma (don't even get me started on organised religion; anyone who knows me, knows the utter contempt with which I regard it in any form). An interesting concept has been brought to my attention lately by - wouldn't you know it - a Pain Of Salvation CD. In the lyrics, Daniel Gildenlow talks about how if you study ancient religious scripts, while they appear entirely different on the surface, all pointing to similar yet vague, time-distorted truths. The idea of a huge global catastrophe for example; interpreted as a flood by Christianity, but what if that was only one way the real truth was passed down? And what if the similar concepts in other religions are simply differently altered versions of the same event? This is the sort of thing I'm talking about, and one of the main reasons I have no faith beyond what I see with my own two eyes. Maybe there is some kind of god up there, but whether there is or not probably isn't worth worrying over, except out of innocent curiosity, as the chances are that no god present in our culture bear any similarity to the real deal."
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"Think for a moment, if you will, about DNA. In the words of Project 2501, it can be argued that DNA is simply a program designed for self-preservation. Which, if you look at it that way, is pretty much an undeniable fact. But through the gradual mutation, adaption and development of billions of years, what was once simply a self-preserving program being passed from parent to offspring has recently (in geological terms, at least) given rise to something much more special. The physical has given rise to the metaphysical. Awareness, appreciation, conciousness, sentience, the capacity to question, call it what you will. For the purposes of this argument, I'll simply call it God.
Just to make it clear, I remain as agnostic as ever in terms of belief in a conventional God. However, I do believe that there is a certain spirituality at the individual level. Earlier I quoted from Ghost In The Shell, but from my standpoint a more accurate name for that film would have been Human and God. Because all a human is is a lump of flesh, blood, sinew and bone, which wanders listlessly around the surface of the Earth looking for food and members of the opposite sex to ensure that the species continues. A God, on the other hand, is what's looking out from behind the globs of jelly humans use to look at things and recognises the majesty of the world around it. While humans might make sounds with their mouths, it is the God which appreciates the potential beauty of these sounds and makes them into a song. While humans might scratch random lines with a stone onto cave walls, it is the God which turns these lines into patterns, into shapes, and ultimately into expressive masterpieces which are hung in museums. What I'm saying is, there is a God, if you want to call it a God, in all of us, and it is that God which takes us beyond beings which exist simply to survive and reproduce; something which can be said of only the most minute fraction imaginable of the species present on Earth, and in none to the same extent as ourselves.
And of course, with this metaphysical element to our existence, existence itself takes on a greater meaning. As beings able to express ourselves, to ask ourselves questions about the environment we live in, we are able to develop, to interact, to make new dicoveries every day and with each new discovery give rise to new questions. We can recognise the majesty in a range of mountains, we can feel the pulsing energy of a crowd at a gig, we can be enraptured by the works of George Orwell and John Steinbeck. We can like, we can dislike, we can laugh, we can cry, we can be afraid, we can be joyful, we can be angry, we can love, we can hate... all that stuff is the gift of the God within us, within or DNA, and it is the reason we stay here, the reason we just don't throw ourselves off the roof of the highest building we can find. Therein lies the joy of living.
From this stems the most fundamental reason for my strong dislike (I don't want to say hatred) of religion in all of it's forms. Just to clarify, I don't hate or dislike or feel any kind of adversity to followers of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. If anything, I feel sorry for them. Instead of using their lives to seek answers, and thus giving their existence context and relevance, they accept answers - whether these answers are right or wrong is irrelevant - given to them by somebody else. I can't think of anything more pointless. If you believe you already have all the answers, then what is there left for you to do? Go through the motions of life - go to school, get a job, get married, have a family, spread the word of whatever deity or deities you believe in and then die? What is the point of it all if you can't use these experiences to come to conclusions about the world around you, or to raise new question? It's all been done for you; there is nothing left to live for. That way, you aren't really a part of the world, you aren't really experiencing it; you're simply an observer looking at it from a fixed standpoint. It's ironic really; while all religions believe they are spreading theword of God, in a way they're really defying it."
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Seeking the Lord
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Elder
"...all religions believe they are spreading theword of God, in a way they're really defying it."
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And exactly who do you think you are? If the KJV1611 is not the Truth, then tell me, what is?
Also, if you really think that all religious believe that, but they are really defying it, then why don't you start spreading the word of God?
But you do not believe in Him, so what you say is completely and utterly invalid.
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Landover Security Superviser Asset Loss Prevention and Personal Security Expert NOT angry and positively NOT Gay
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Elder
Hi. I'm what's generally known around here as "unsaved scum", and I've written down some of my thoughts on God and religion in general. I was wondering what you might have to say about it, as judging by the interesting people around here, it should give rise to some fascinating responses. Thank you, and here it is:
"I consider myself agnostic. That's agnostic, NOT atheistic.
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So what is your point friend? That we should sit around and wait until you make your mind that you truly hate God and become an atheist. It is to late to intervene with someone when they have put on a suicide vest and run into a kindergarten screaming there is no God, we have to get involved now.
Friend,
I am here to tell you while you have given up on Jesus HE hasn't given up on you. Turn to HIM before it too late. Satan has used your doubt to mask yourself to THE TRUTH™; that God's Holy Word is in the KJV1611. There is nothing vague about that.
Time to reclaim our FREEDOM from the “Mullah in Chief” and his growing activist voter hoards of socialists, communists, anti-Semites, anti-Christians, atheists, radical gays and lesbians, feminists, illegal immigrants, Muslims, anti-Anglo whites and others.
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 07:16 PM
Actually, I used to be an atheist, before realising agnosticism is really more valid.
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Elder
Actually, I used to be an atheist, before realising agnosticism is really more valid.
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You're one step closer to God!
The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.
Exodus 15:3
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 07:20 PM
I can't help thinking that "thoughts" seems like an awfully strong word to be using in this context.
O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it--for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
God being truth, justice, goodness, beauty, power, and life, man is falsehood, iniquity, evil, ugliness, impotence, and death. God being master, man is the slave. Incapable of finding justice, truth, and eternal life by his own effort, he can attain them only through a divine revelation... he who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter, but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity.
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 07:53 PM
How so?
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Seeking the Lord
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 08:07 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Brother Temperance is saying that your "thoughts" aren't really thoughts at all. They are lies. Satan is deceiving you. You must praise Jesus and God in their entirety.
Oh, and while you're at it, don't forget to read the Bible.
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Landover Security Superviser Asset Loss Prevention and Personal Security Expert NOT angry and positively NOT Gay
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Elder
Actually, I used to be an atheist, before realising agnosticism is really more valid.
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How is agnosticism more valid? You're presented with the proof of God existence in the KJV1611 so there is nothing to doubt. You ether love God like we TRUE Christians or hate HIM which is an atheist.
You just to reason this thing out properly.
Time to reclaim our FREEDOM from the “Mullah in Chief” and his growing activist voter hoards of socialists, communists, anti-Semites, anti-Christians, atheists, radical gays and lesbians, feminists, illegal immigrants, Muslims, anti-Anglo whites and others.
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Ladies of Landover Senior VP One of the Truest Christians™ Ever Mama Grizzly and formerly Sister Mary Maria
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Elder
I believe that the existence of a higher power, a deity, a god, a 4D being or whatever, such an entity would be entirely beyond human perception, and thus it's impossible to know with absolute certainty - at the very least, until our technology advances a sh*tload further than it is now - whether or not such an entity does or does not exist. Even if such an entity tried to make itself known to us, we humans, with our limited powers of perception and cynical nature, would never recognise a manifestation of a higher power for what it was.
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I had to cut out a lot of blathering just to get to where you're the most wrong. Are you saying that God is so powerful that He can't allow Himself to be perceived by humans? He certain has shown himself in the past, all the way back to the beginning of time, 6000-10,000 years ago. He has since shown himself in a variety of ways to many people, including to all humanity through His Holy Word, the Bible.
I'm sorry that you can't recognize the 6 day creation of Earth or a bush that is aflame but doesn't burn away as reasonable indicators of a higher power, but don't speak for the rest of us.
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Elder
<TOO MANY WORDS, cut and pasted from another forum . . . yes, we do know how to use Google here>
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Congratulations on your discovery of mind-body dualism. If only you could go back in time and tell Plato and Aristotle about your amazing philosophical insights!
Perhaps you should look into some contemporary thought on consciousness, instead of licking up the endlessly-masticated regurgitations of Descartes that you've only seen in cartoons and heard from Swedish metal bands and spitting them back out as spitwads of pseudointellectualism.
(By the way, if you're going to mention having quoted a cartoon previously in your long-winded essay, it's a good idea to cut-and-paste the part of your essay which includes the earlier quote.)
Why exactly would you come into a Baptist Church Forum, release a steaming pile of anti-Christian blather, and expect anything but condemnation? Do you not realize that your cartoon-quoting God-hatred is insulting to Christians, or are you so self-absorbed that you don't care that you have joined a Church forum and started off by blaspheming God?
Last edited by OnYourKnees; 05-13-2007 at 09:15 PM.
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnYourKnees
Congratulations on your discovery of mind-body dualism. If only you could go back in time and tell Plato and Aristotle about your amazing philosophical insights!
Perhaps you should look into some contemporary thought on consciousness, instead of licking up the endlessly-masticated regurgitations of Descartes that you've only seen in cartoons and heard from Swedish metal bands and spitting them back out as spitwads of pseudointellectualism.
(By the way, if you're going to mention having quoted a cartoon previously in your long-winded essay, it's a good idea to cut-and-paste the part of your essay which includes the earlier quote.)
Why exactly would you come into a Baptist Church Forum, release a steaming pile of anti-Christian blather, and expect anything but condemnation? Do you not realize that your cartoon-quoting God-hatred is insulting to Christians, or are you so self-absorbed that you don't care that you have joined a Church forum and started off by blaspheming God?
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1: Yes I copied and pasted from another forum. I don't claim not to have; why do you think I put inverted commas around the passage?
2: Yes, my thinking was influenced to a limited degree by Swedish metal music and Japanese anime. So what? Sometimes such things can be very insightful. If all you can do is mock my sources, rather than coming up with a coherent counter-argument, then you're in no position to judge me.
3: Sure, the ideas demostrated in my essay probably aren't original. They almost certainly have been voiced by one philosopher or another in the past. Again, so what? I don't claim to be some kind of great, progressively thinking philosopher, and I never have. All I'm doing is stating the philosophy which I believe in in my own words. Which really is no different to what you Christians do.
4: The quote is present. Look for the part about Project 2501. The fact that you missed it goes to show that you're obviously unfamiliar with Ghost In The Shell and further reduces the validity of your mockery of my "cartoon quoting".
5: I fully expected condemnation. I just happened to have the balls to go ahead anyway.
6: I stated clearly that I'm agnostic. How can what I said be "God-hatred" if I'm uncertain God exists at all?
7: I don't see anything wrong with trying to stimulate debate between people of different belief. If "True Christians" are so touchy about being contradicted, then maybe they'd think twice before putting "Unsaved Welcome" on the banner of their site.
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The Future Mrs. Ezekiel Flint Voted Best Pies in Freehold 10 Years Running aka the BiblethumpinBlonde
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 10:00 PM
~~~yawn~~~~~
I just hate rude guests on God's Favorite Forum.
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Landover Security Superviser Asset Loss Prevention and Personal Security Expert NOT angry and positively NOT Gay
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Elder
7: I don't see anything wrong with trying to stimulate debate between people of different belief. If "True Christians" are so touchy about being contradicted, then maybe they'd think twice before putting "Unsaved Welcome" on the banner of their site.
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What is there to debate friend? God, threw the Bible, is right and everyone is else is wrong. By debating with you friend we would have to go against our beliefs and accept the unthinkable possibility that God might be wrong. I suppose we are open to discussion as long as you accept God is right.
Time to reclaim our FREEDOM from the “Mullah in Chief” and his growing activist voter hoards of socialists, communists, anti-Semites, anti-Christians, atheists, radical gays and lesbians, feminists, illegal immigrants, Muslims, anti-Anglo whites and others.
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Honorary White Woman.
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 10:21 PM
Well, praise Jesus! I had thought that unsaved windbags was useless ('cept for fuelin' the flames of Hell, of course), but that first post o' this topic done did put me to sleep! If I ever haves troubles sleepin', I knows right where to look.
"He went on CNN and he laughed at us, and he said, 'They'll never get me because Allah will protect me. Allah will protect me.' Well, you know what? I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol." - Lt. General William G. Boykin
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Putting the "stud" back in Bible Study
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 10:21 PM
Oh please! This guy is too much! HA-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! He wants us to worship chink cartoons and queer music from the north pole over the Holy Bible?!! OH stop! You're killing me!! HAHAHAHA!
Really this eurotrash homer is the biggest tool to stumble in here in a long time!
Here is a partial list from just a few scripture verses:
Hypocrites (Matthew 24:51), The Unforgiving (Mark 11:26), Homosexuals (Romans 1:26, 27), Fornicators (Romans 1:29), The Wicked (Romans 1:29), The Covetous (Romans 1:29), The Malicious (Romans 1:29), The Envious (Romans 1:29), Murderers (Romans 1:29), The Deceitful (Romans 1:29), Backbiters (Romans 1:30), Haters of God (Romans 1:30), The Despiteful (Romans 1:30), The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30), Inventors of evil (Romans 1:30), Disobedient to parents (Romans 1:30), Covenant breakers (Romans 1:31), The Unmerciful (Romans 1:31), The Implacable (Romans 1:31), The Unrighteous (1Corinthians 6:9), Idolaters (1Corinthians 6:9), Adulterers (1Corinthians 6:9), The Effeminate (1Corinthians 6:9), Thieves (1Corinthians 6:10), Drunkards (1Corinthians 6:10), Reviler (1Corinthians 6:10), Extortioners (1Corinthians 6:10), The Fearful (Revelation 21:8), The Unbelieving (Revelation 21:8), The Abominable (Revelation 21:8), Whoremongers (Revelation 21:8), Sorcerers (Revelation 21:8), All Liars (Revelation 21:8)
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Senior Usher True Christian™ missionary to the Unsaved Kingdom A very nice young man
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Elder
7: I don't see anything wrong with trying to stimulate debate between people of different belief. If "True Christians" are so touchy about being contradicted, then maybe they'd think twice before putting "Unsaved Welcome" on the banner of their site.
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Friend, can you read?
O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it--for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
God being truth, justice, goodness, beauty, power, and life, man is falsehood, iniquity, evil, ugliness, impotence, and death. God being master, man is the slave. Incapable of finding justice, truth, and eternal life by his own effort, he can attain them only through a divine revelation... he who desires to worship God must harbor no childish illusions about the matter, but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity.
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Christ's Love Messenger
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-13-2007, 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Temperance
Friend, can you read?
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There's a high likelihood that's debatable. Let's see what he's said so far...
Quote:
I used to be an atheist, before realising agnosticism is really more valid.
Yes I copied and pasted from another forum.
Yes, my thinking was influenced to a limited degree by Swedish metal music and Japanese anime.
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And my favorite;
Quote:
the ideas demostrated in my essay probably aren't original.
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How can something "probably" not be original? Either you thought about it (original) or it was acquired by another source (unoriginal). I'm not sure if the elevator goes all the way to the top if you know what I mean.
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On Extended Furlough
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-14-2007, 01:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Elder
1: Yes I copied and pasted from another forum. I don't claim not to have; why do you think I put inverted commas around the passage?
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Usually one puts quotation marks (that's what they're called, not "inverted commas") around someone else's work. So, I will assume you actually quoted someone else's work, which you did not credit.
Plagiarism is stealing. Stealing is a sin.
Quote:
2: Yes, my thinking was influenced to a limited degree by Swedish metal music and Japanese anime. So what? Sometimes such things can be very insightful. If all you can do is mock my sources, rather than coming up with a coherent counter-argument, then you're in no position to judge me.
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But your sources are so easy to mock. Have you even read any of the philosophy you mangle, or do you just worship your cartoons?
Quote:
3: Sure, the ideas demostrated in my essay probably aren't original. They almost certainly have been voiced by one philosopher or another in the past. Again, so what? I don't claim to be some kind of great, progressively thinking philosopher, and I never have. All I'm doing is stating the philosophy which I believe in in my own words. Which really is no different to what you Christians do.
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We don't state a philosophy. We believe God's Word.
You steal other people's ideas and pass them off as your own in loquacious diatribes, which you may or may not have actually written.
Quote:
4: The quote is present. Look for the part about Project 2501. The fact that you missed it goes to show that you're obviously unfamiliar with Ghost In The Shell and further reduces the validity of your mockery of my "cartoon quoting".
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Admittedly, I don't watch cartoons. If I were a preadolescent, I might. However, before trying to address the grownups, I'd probably do a little homework and find real sources, not cartoons and Swedish bands.
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5: I fully expected condemnation. I just happened to have the balls to go ahead anyway.
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Or rudeness, as Sister BTB has pointed out.
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6: I stated clearly that I'm agnostic. How can what I said be "God-hatred" if I'm uncertain God exists at all?
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If you are not with God, you are against God. You reject His Word, His Sacrifice, and His Love.
Luke 11:23
He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
Quote:
7: I don't see anything wrong with trying to stimulate debate between people of different belief. If "True Christians" are so touchy about being contradicted, then maybe they'd think twice before putting "Unsaved Welcome" on the banner of their site.
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This explains your reliance upon cartoons for information. You have poor reading comprehension.
Kindly re-read the banner at the top of the page. What does it say? Where does it say, "Unsaved Welcome"?
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HEATHEN — Suspected Witch
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Re: My thoughts. -
05-14-2007, 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Elder
*snip*VERBOSE post *snip*
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To quote someone else:
Too long, didn't read.
Could you maybe summarize in point form?
Wake up and smell the 21st Century!!
Last edited by Rachael Van Helsing; 05-14-2007 at 01:17 AM.
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