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-   -   PROOF God is REAL! (https://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=13955)

Ezekiel Bathfire 02-17-2009 12:13 AM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Before someone else mentions it, Archbishop Ussher proved conclusively that the earth can be no more than 6000 years old give or take. Others narrowed it down to, I think, 9 am on 23 October, however, that is still contentious.

As it happens the Wright brothers were good Christians and inspired by God who trusted them not to fly too close to Heaven (see Tower of Babel incident.) This probably accounts for the first short flight.

joe707 02-17-2009 11:34 PM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Of course not! Deduction cannot explain miracles. They are counterintuitive. But then, so is quantum physics. So is the study of Quantum mechanics useless merely because we cannot understand it? No, not as long as it leads to a greater understanding of GOD.
I agree, it would be silly to disregard something just because it seemed counterintuitive. The paths of science and religion are both filled with great things, impossible things, mad things.

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Amen, something else IS badly need, friend. That something else is called Faith. Faith is how I know that the first two premises are true. They can't be proven any other way. Let that be a lesson to anyone who doubts the power of Faith.
Yes, I’m glad you said that Pastor, but how do you discriminate faith from knowledge? Do they overlap? You can see faith coming from all sorts of odd places. I don’t think that makes it any real order of knowledge though.

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Not entirely. The Bible also serves as eyewitness testimony (it was written by men who directly observed miracles of God). Moreover, the Bible is filled with prophecy that has come true (e.g., the gathering of the Jews in Israel). There's the real test of faith--prove one Biblical prophecy wrong, and the entire Bible is false. I've yet to see anyone show a single prophecy that was wrong, though.
Well scientists would say that the idea of a flat earth (which admittedly is not so much a prophecy) has now been shown to be false. Which it has, according to empirical, scientific method. So either you end up trying to prove otherwise as in the posts here - which is a tough ask - or maybe you have to go further, and declare that empirical science is not ultimate truth. I’d go with this, although the danger is you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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However, the secular "scientists" are also using the wrong tools, because their methods and their axioms ignore the effect of the Will of God.
Right, such a concept is anathema to scientific method. No purely physical science is able to work with such axioms. It is proving to be real sand in the ointment in this day and age. It irritates everyone, even Richard Dawkins.

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But you should understand that there is far more to our views than the argument from first cause.
I do, I do.

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I believe we've got change coming, Joe.
Hmm, Intriguing. Do say more. If I didn't know better, I'd say you were being quite the mystic!

Pastor Billy-Reuben 02-18-2009 12:09 AM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joe707 (Post 294895)
Yes, I’m glad you said that Pastor, but how do you discriminate faith from knowledge? Do they overlap? You can see faith coming from all sorts of odd places. I don’t think that makes it any real order of knowledge though.

Faith is all we have, friend. You take it purely on faith that you aren't just a brain in a jar dreaming a dream, and that the entire universe as you know it exists outside your imagination.

joe707 02-18-2009 01:42 AM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben (Post 294932)
Faith is all we have, friend. You take it purely on faith that you aren't just a brain in a jar dreaming a dream, and that the entire universe as you know it exists outside your imagination.

I think we have much, much more. There is knowing beyond just faith. It may be that the entire universe doesn't exist outside imagination, but is that not knowledge too? Who dreamt the first dream? Faith was never meant to be the end of things.

joe707 02-18-2009 01:44 AM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyD (Post 293987)
I believe we've got change coming, Joe.

Ah, the other kind of change! I get it. Thanks, I was being a bit slow there.

Ahimaaz Smith 02-18-2009 10:25 PM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joe707 (Post 294992)
It may be that the entire universe doesn't exist outside imagination, but is that not knowledge too?

What the Hell are you talking about? The universe exists. We know that, because God created it. First verse of the Bible:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

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Faith was never meant to be the end of things.
You have some strange notions. Jesus said in Revelation 22:13:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

joe707 02-19-2009 02:20 AM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahimaaz Smith (Post 295320)
What the Hell are you talking about? The universe exists. We know that, because God created it. First verse of the Bible: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

But we’re not talking about that. We agreed that that is not a claim that can be sustained by logic. The Pastor says it is faith alone that can support this. And I am saying that neither logical analysis nor faith in the word, any word, is really enough.

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You have some strange notions. Jesus said in Revelation 22:13: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Yes, but what do you understand by that? It needs more than just slavishly following the text.

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

What does that mean?

Pastor Billy-Reuben 02-19-2009 03:57 AM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joe707 (Post 295409)
What does that mean?

It means if you didn't learn what the preacher tried to teach you because you too busy daydreaming to pay attention to the sermon, then it's real easy for a false teacher to come along and sway you with false teachings.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

Pastor Al E Pistle 02-19-2009 09:08 AM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joe707 (Post 295409)
Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

What does that mean?

Joe, I am going to cut to the chase here. The Bible, as confirmed to be completely correct by the latest scientific methodology I have applied, means this:

We are very near the end times. You must donate all of your worldly possessions to the church and preach The Word as it is given to you by us...which basically involves convincing everyone else to donate THEIR worldly possessions to us as a demonstration of their true repentance and acceptance of JESUS.

If you don't do that, we have to send someone to kill you, but we aren't heathens. We will call ahead for a mutually acceptable and convenient time. If that isn't love I don't know what is!

joe707 02-19-2009 09:50 PM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Al E Pistle (Post 295487)
Joe, I am going to cut to the chase here. The Bible, as confirmed to be completely correct by the latest scientific methodology I have applied, means this:

We are very near the end times. You must donate all of your worldly possessions to the church and preach The Word as it is given to you by us...which basically involves convincing everyone else to donate THEIR worldly possessions to us as a demonstration of their true repentance and acceptance of JESUS.

If you don't do that, we have to send someone to kill you, but we aren't heathens. We will call ahead for a mutually acceptable and convenient time. If that isn't love I don't know what is!

You should know what love is. It is not that. Maybe you are being a bit tongue-in-cheek here Pastor, I bet you see more than that.

joe707 02-19-2009 09:52 PM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Billy-Reuben (Post 295441)
It means if you didn't learn what the preacher tried to teach you because you too busy daydreaming to pay attention to the sermon, then it's real easy for a false teacher to come along and sway you with false teachings.

Pastor Billy-Reuben

Isn’t it saying more about understanding than being taught? It says there is a difference between hearing and understanding. What is sown in the heart? Because you lose it when you don’t understand: it is lost when you look but can’t find.

Bobby-Joe 02-20-2009 12:17 AM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joe707 (Post 295611)
Isn’t it saying more about understanding than being taught? It says there is a difference between hearing and understanding. What is sown in the heart? Because you lose it when you don’t understand: it is lost when you look but can’t find.

No, God is explaining to us if we try interpreting His word Satan will whisper lies into our ears and trick us into damning ourselves.

WilliamJenningsBryan 02-20-2009 12:56 AM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joe707 (Post 295409)
But we’re not talking about that. We agreed that that is not a claim that can be sustained by logic. The Pastor says it is faith alone that can support this. And I am saying that neither logical analysis nor faith in the word, any word, is really enough.
...

Upon what basis do you make this ill conceived assertion?

joe707 02-20-2009 11:09 PM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamJenningsBryan (Post 295695)
Upon what basis do you make this ill conceived assertion?

Logic alone is not enough to support an argument for scripture being the exclusive Word of God. http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showt...043#post293043 Others have better explained this circularity elsewhere. Something more than logic is needed.

Belief in scripture alone is not enough, for reasons above (Matthew 13:19). What do you make of the parable in Luke Chapter 8?

Luke 8:5-11 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

joe707 02-20-2009 11:14 PM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby-Joe (Post 295671)
No, God is explaining to us if we try interpreting His word Satan will whisper lies into our ears and trick us into damning ourselves.

But understand it, and you will not lose that which was sown in your heart. There is so much in that passage.

Ezekiel Bathfire 02-20-2009 11:37 PM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joe707 (Post 295978)
Logic alone is not enough to support an argument for scripture being the exclusive Word of God. http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showt...043#post293043 Others have better explained this circularity elsewhere. Something more than logic is needed.

Belief in scripture alone is not enough, for reasons above (Matthew 13:19). What do you make of the parable in Luke Chapter 8?

Luke 8:5-11 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Clearly it shows that there is a God because He has a Kingdom. Proof indeed! :thumbsup:

Bobby-Joe 02-20-2009 11:48 PM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joe707 (Post 295980)
But understand it, and you will not lose that which was sown in your heart. There is so much in that passage.

This sounds like you are on the slippery slope to interpretation friend. We human beings are terribly flawed at best, if not out right evil (without His Grace, PRAISE). The only understand we need to do is correctly listen to God's words.

Ahimaaz Smith 02-21-2009 03:34 AM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joe707 (Post 295409)
But we’re not talking about that. We agreed that that is not a claim that can be sustained by logic. The Pastor says it is faith alone that can support this. And I am saying that neither logical analysis nor faith in the word, any word, is really enough.

There's no contradiction between our faith and logic, just as there is no contradiction in the Bible. But I agree with you that faith cannot be justified by logic alone. You need to consider the facts, too. If the Bible said something that was demonstrably not true, then I'd have to agree with you, our faith would be wrong--not only that, but ENTIRELY wrong. Luckily, nothing in the Bible is controverted by the available facts. At the same time, you should also consider the broad array of prophecies in the Bible--God got a lot of them right, not one of them wrong, and the rest (e.g., the Book of Revelation) simply haven't happened yet. That's a pretty good track record, and one that secular science, which is constantly changing it's mind about everything, can't match. It's not even close.

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Yes, but what do you understand by that? It needs more than just slavishly following the text.
There are 66 books in the Bible that explain it. I can't really cover everything from A to Z here, but I don't want to be evasive, either. Is there some particular point that interests you that you'd like me to flesh out?

joe707 02-24-2009 12:02 AM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire (Post 295983)
Clearly it shows that there is a God because He has a Kingdom. Proof indeed! :thumbsup:

There are other kingdoms lorded over by others. As you know! Can you tell one from another? We have all been fooled, deception runs very deep. The word of God is the seed. It can fall upon a rock.

joe707 02-24-2009 12:06 AM

Re: PROOF God is REAL!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby-Joe (Post 295985)
This sounds like you are on the slippery slope to interpretation friend. We human beings are terribly flawed at best, if not out right evil (without His Grace, PRAISE). The only understand we need to do is correctly listen to God's words.

I agree with you, interpretation via the intellect is fraught with errors. But I don't think either listening or interpreting will do.

Matthew 13:14/15 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

(bold mine)


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